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Author Topic:   How Can Trinity Believers Explain This
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 300 (158432)
11-11-2004 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Angel
11-11-2004 2:06 PM


Hi Angel,
I left a note for you on the "The Whole Jesus Thing" thread.
I agree with you on the Trinity question. It is my opinion that the Trinity concept was developed to be in accordance with the emerging church doctrine that Christ was eternally co-existent with YHWH rather than what I think was originally more of an adoptionistic stance. As you have recognized, wmscott has provided many of the relevant points of reference.
P.S. to sidelined >> I like the signature. Another analogy I have read somewhere is that: "Calling Atheism a religion is like saying 'not collecting stamps is a hobby'". (Unknown attribution)
As always,
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 2:06 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 3:52 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 62 of 300 (158435)
11-11-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by wmscott
11-11-2004 8:50 AM


Re: ANGEL IS RIGHT!
quote:
For it is impossible for "three to be one and still be three and still be one." The preceding statement is what is called mutually exclusive, a self contradiction.
Only if you're referring to three beings. If you're referring to three personnae, or manifestations to be one being, then that makes perfect sense.
quote:
For example, in the King James Version 1 John 5:7 reads "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Sounds like proof of the trinity, only one problem, the verse is spurious and doesn't appear in ancient manuscripts. In the King James Version, 1 Timothy 3:16 states "God was manifest in the flesh," Proof of the trinity? Nope, "God" was added to this verse, it should read "he" instead referring to Jesus and not his father.
What 'ancient manuscripts' are you referring to? What are you comparing the KJV against ? Some references please!
quote:
For example the most commonly used verse is of course John 1:1 "what, God was, the Word was." (REB) Now the point of this verse is to highlight the Word's (Jesus Christ) pre human existence in heaven with his heavenly father, not that he was the Father. Many Bible translators have chosen to render this verse as "the word was God." Now this translation is very curious considering the wording of the next verse. "He was with God at the Beginning"
same as above. Some references please!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by wmscott, posted 11-11-2004 8:50 AM wmscott has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Amlodhi, posted 11-11-2004 3:59 PM Legend has replied

Angel
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 300 (158441)
11-11-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Amlodhi
11-11-2004 3:21 PM


HEY!!!
Good to hear from you! As always I appreciate your input! Talk to you later.
Best regards

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Amlodhi, posted 11-11-2004 3:21 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 300 (158443)
11-11-2004 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
11-11-2004 3:27 PM


Re: ANGEL IS RIGHT!
quote:
Originally posted by Legend
What 'ancient manuscripts' are you referring to?
Hi Legend,
In the case of 1 John 5:7-8 he's referring to all of them. This is the infamous 'Comma Johanneum' and the late interpolation simply doesn't exist in any manuscript witness before c. the fifteenth century. Also, it is not cited by any of the earlier ecclesiastical writers or any of the earlier church fathers.
Thus, it is now almost universally recognized that there has been a later insertion into this text precisely because of the controversy surrounding the Trinitarian question.
The following quotation is 1 John 5:7-8 and the interpolation (which even the KJV recognizes in a marginal note) is reproduced in bold type :
quote:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.
And there are three that bear witness in earth,
the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
Amlodhi
This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 11-11-2004 04:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 11-11-2004 3:27 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Legend, posted 11-11-2004 4:35 PM Amlodhi has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 65 of 300 (158449)
11-11-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Amlodhi
11-11-2004 3:59 PM


Re: ANGEL IS RIGHT!
thanks for your input Amlodhi,
are you implying that 1 John 5:7-8 was originally one verse, which said :
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
If yes, which manuscript said this and where can I find some reference to it ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Amlodhi, posted 11-11-2004 3:59 PM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Amlodhi, posted 11-11-2004 5:26 PM Legend has replied

Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 300 (158463)
11-11-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Legend
11-11-2004 4:35 PM


Re: ANGEL IS RIGHT!
quote:
Originally posted by Legend
. . . are you implying that 1 John 5:7-8 was originally one verse . . .
Hi Legend,
There were no verse divisions in the original Greek, but yes, that is basically the case.
The eight late manuscripts with the longer reading are cited in the following:
quote:
5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement. --NET Bible
Before toV pneu'ma kaiV toV u{dwr kaiV toV ai|ma, the Textus Receptus reads ejn tw'/ oujranw'/, oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo", kaiV toV a{gion pneu'ma, kaiV ou|toi oiJ trei'" e{n eijsi. 5:8 kaiV trei'" eijsin oiJ marturou'nte" ejn th'/ gh'/ (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidenceboth external and internalis decidedly against its authenticity. Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence.1
>> This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. <<
Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church.
Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D. (Bold and >> << emphasis for manuscript attestation added)
Page not found | Bible.org
You can also find exhaustive manuscript attestation for this passage in the Nestle-Aland NT text:
quote:
. . . the (in)famous "Comma Johanneum" . . . a glance at the data in the critical apparatus of Nestle-Aland (which is exhaustive for this passage) should make any further comment unnecessary to demonstrate the secondary nature of this addition and the impossibility of its being at all related to the original form of the text of 1 John.
(The Text of the New Testament ; Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland; William B. Eerdmans Pub.; Grand Rapids, Michigan)
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Legend, posted 11-11-2004 4:35 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Legend, posted 11-11-2004 5:51 PM Amlodhi has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 67 of 300 (158465)
11-11-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Angel
11-11-2004 10:48 AM


Godhead, God, what is the difference?
No, on the contrary, you have trinitarians that believe in the Godhead, and don't realize it. A Godhead, is a Godhead, but as I said before, it doesn't matter what you call it, it is the belief that is important.
Angel,
What is the distinction between God and Godhead? Is there any?
Thankyou,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 10:48 AM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 5:51 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 68 of 300 (158468)
11-11-2004 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Angel
11-11-2004 12:27 PM


Re: Seeing God
For instance, though my picture is on here (pretend that it isn't), we are talking face to face, one after the other, with each other. But I can't see your face. Does that mean that we are not communicating? No, it simply means that you can't see me.
Angel,
I've never heard face to face used the way you are here. I would say you are not talking face to face but rather are engaging in written communication, a big difference. No other sensory channels such as pupil dilation and eye movement, color in face, breath rythyms and tonality. I don't see how you can claim this is face to face! Even over the phone is not face to face, and though some people might include some video conferencing as face to face, I think face to face means in person at a close enough personal distance to read the other persons non verbal responses.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 12:27 PM Angel has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 69 of 300 (158469)
11-11-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Amlodhi
11-11-2004 5:26 PM


Re: ANGEL IS RIGHT!
Hi Amlodhi,
thanks for the info,
I think that the Trinity doctrine was developed to smooth the obvious difficulties in important questions (like 'how many Gods') that arose due to the inconsistencies and ambiguities int the different books. I definitely think that the doctrine does not contradict the KJV. I hadn't realized that the KJV had been altered to accomodate the doctrine.
I'll look more into this.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Amlodhi, posted 11-11-2004 5:26 PM Amlodhi has not replied

Angel
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 300 (158470)
11-11-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by lfen
11-11-2004 5:30 PM


Re: Godhead, God, what is the difference?
Ifen,
GODHEAD:
There are three separate personages in the Godhead.
Each is distinct from the other two, while in complete union together.
God presides over the Godhead.
Jesus is the mediator between God and us (Christians).
The Holy Spirit (or Ghost) bears witness to the truth.
quote:
What is the distinction between God and Godhead? Is there any?
God is the 'head' (if you will) of the Godhead.

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by lfen, posted 11-11-2004 5:30 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by lfen, posted 11-11-2004 6:02 PM Angel has replied
 Message 74 by Legend, posted 11-11-2004 6:40 PM Angel has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 71 of 300 (158473)
11-11-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Angel
11-11-2004 5:51 PM


Re: Godhead, God, what is the difference?
There are three separate personages in the Godhead.
Angel,
So if I am correctly reading you then would you accept that this statement follows from what you've said: God is NOT a trinity, but the Godhead IS a trinity of God, Son, Spirit?
Thanks,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 5:51 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 6:21 PM lfen has replied

Angel
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 300 (158479)
11-11-2004 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by lfen
11-11-2004 6:02 PM


Re: Godhead, God, what is the difference?
quote:
So if I am correctly reading you then would you accept that this statement follows from what you've said: God is NOT a trinity, but the Godhead IS a trinity of God, Son, Spirit?
Well, in my opinion, no. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost make up the Godhead, it doesn't make them. God is the King,
Jesus is the Prince, and the Holy Spirit is the duke (figuratively speaking!). The Godhead doesn't make Them, They make
the Godhead. I hate using examples because I am obviously terrible at them , but I said that so that maybe you
would understand me.
(but again I say, it doesn't really matter what you call it, it is the belief that counts )

Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by lfen, posted 11-11-2004 6:02 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by lfen, posted 11-11-2004 6:43 PM Angel has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 300 (158482)
11-11-2004 6:25 PM


POEM; THE TRINITY WAY. buzsaw
God is our father, to whom we should pray.
Jesus the son, our lord and the way.
The Spirit was given from God in his love,
To give us new life and be born from above.
God is the father, Jesus the son,
The Spirit of them makes the three one.
God sent the the saviour, to die on the tree;
To pay for our sins and redeem you and me.
So believe in Christ Jesus. Yield to him all;
Your soul he will save, as on him you call.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-11-2004 06:34 PM

Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 74 of 300 (158483)
11-11-2004 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Angel
11-11-2004 5:51 PM


Re: Godhead, God, what is the difference?
Angel,
did you realize you just described the Trinity?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 5:51 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 6:46 PM Legend has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 75 of 300 (158485)
11-11-2004 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Angel
11-11-2004 6:21 PM


Re: Godhead, God, what is the difference?
So Godhead is just a name for a grouping, rather than a thing in itself?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 6:21 PM Angel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Angel, posted 11-11-2004 6:58 PM lfen has replied

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