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Author | Topic: How Can Trinity Believers Explain This | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Hi Angel,
I left a note for you on the "The Whole Jesus Thing" thread. I agree with you on the Trinity question. It is my opinion that the Trinity concept was developed to be in accordance with the emerging church doctrine that Christ was eternally co-existent with YHWH rather than what I think was originally more of an adoptionistic stance. As you have recognized, wmscott has provided many of the relevant points of reference. P.S. to sidelined >> I like the signature. Another analogy I have read somewhere is that: "Calling Atheism a religion is like saying 'not collecting stamps is a hobby'". (Unknown attribution) As always, Amlodhi
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
quote:Only if you're referring to three beings. If you're referring to three personnae, or manifestations to be one being, then that makes perfect sense. quote: What 'ancient manuscripts' are you referring to? What are you comparing the KJV against ? Some references please!
quote: same as above. Some references please! "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Angel Inactive Member |
HEY!!!
Good to hear from you! As always I appreciate your input! Talk to you later. Best regards Angel
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: Hi Legend, In the case of 1 John 5:7-8 he's referring to all of them. This is the infamous 'Comma Johanneum' and the late interpolation simply doesn't exist in any manuscript witness before c. the fifteenth century. Also, it is not cited by any of the earlier ecclesiastical writers or any of the earlier church fathers. Thus, it is now almost universally recognized that there has been a later insertion into this text precisely because of the controversy surrounding the Trinitarian question. The following quotation is 1 John 5:7-8 and the interpolation (which even the KJV recognizes in a marginal note) is reproduced in bold type :
quote: Amlodhi This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 11-11-2004 04:02 PM
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
thanks for your input Amlodhi,
are you implying that 1 John 5:7-8 was originally one verse, which said : For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one. If yes, which manuscript said this and where can I find some reference to it ? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
quote: Hi Legend, There were no verse divisions in the original Greek, but yes, that is basically the case. The eight late manuscripts with the longer reading are cited in the following:
quote: You can also find exhaustive manuscript attestation for this passage in the Nestle-Aland NT text:
quote: Amlodhi
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
No, on the contrary, you have trinitarians that believe in the Godhead, and don't realize it. A Godhead, is a Godhead, but as I said before, it doesn't matter what you call it, it is the belief that is important. Angel, What is the distinction between God and Godhead? Is there any? Thankyou, lfen
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
For instance, though my picture is on here (pretend that it isn't), we are talking face to face, one after the other, with each other. But I can't see your face. Does that mean that we are not communicating? No, it simply means that you can't see me. Angel, I've never heard face to face used the way you are here. I would say you are not talking face to face but rather are engaging in written communication, a big difference. No other sensory channels such as pupil dilation and eye movement, color in face, breath rythyms and tonality. I don't see how you can claim this is face to face! Even over the phone is not face to face, and though some people might include some video conferencing as face to face, I think face to face means in person at a close enough personal distance to read the other persons non verbal responses. lfen
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Hi Amlodhi,
thanks for the info, I think that the Trinity doctrine was developed to smooth the obvious difficulties in important questions (like 'how many Gods') that arose due to the inconsistencies and ambiguities int the different books. I definitely think that the doctrine does not contradict the KJV. I hadn't realized that the KJV had been altered to accomodate the doctrine. I'll look more into this. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Angel Inactive Member |
Ifen,
GODHEAD:There are three separate personages in the Godhead. Each is distinct from the other two, while in complete union together. God presides over the Godhead. Jesus is the mediator between God and us (Christians). The Holy Spirit (or Ghost) bears witness to the truth.
quote:God is the 'head' (if you will) of the Godhead. Angel
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
There are three separate personages in the Godhead. Angel, So if I am correctly reading you then would you accept that this statement follows from what you've said: God is NOT a trinity, but the Godhead IS a trinity of God, Son, Spirit? Thanks,lfen
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Angel Inactive Member |
quote: Well, in my opinion, no. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost make up the Godhead, it doesn't make them. God is the King, Jesus is the Prince, and the Holy Spirit is the duke (figuratively speaking!). The Godhead doesn't make Them, They make the Godhead. I hate using examples because I am obviously terrible at them , but I said that so that maybe you would understand me. (but again I say, it doesn't really matter what you call it, it is the belief that counts ) Angel
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
God is our father, to whom we should pray.
Jesus the son, our lord and the way. The Spirit was given from God in his love,To give us new life and be born from above. God is the father, Jesus the son,The Spirit of them makes the three one. God sent the the saviour, to die on the tree;To pay for our sins and redeem you and me. So believe in Christ Jesus. Yield to him all;Your soul he will save, as on him you call. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-11-2004 06:34 PM
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Angel,
did you realize you just described the Trinity? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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lfen Member (Idle past 4678 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
So Godhead is just a name for a grouping, rather than a thing in itself?
lfen
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