How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Hi Angel,I left a note for you on the "The Whole Jesus Thing" thread.I agree with you on the Trinity question. It is my opinion that the Trinity concept was developed to be in accordance with the emerging church doctrine that Christ was eternally co-existent with YHWH rather than what I think was originally more of an adoptionistic stance. As you have recognized, wmscott has provided many of the relevant points of reference.P.S. to sidelined >> I like the signature. Another analogy I have read somewhere is that: "Calling Atheism a religion is like saying 'not collecting stamps is a hobby'". (Unknown attribution)As always,Amlodhi

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Originally posted by Legend

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What 'ancient manuscripts' are you referring to?

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Hi Legend,In the case of 1 John 5:7-8 he's referring to all of them. This is the infamous 'Comma Johanneum' and the late interpolation simply doesn't exist in any manuscript witness before c. the fifteenth century. Also, it is not cited by any of the earlier ecclesiastical writers or any of the earlier church fathers.Thus, it is now almost universally recognized that there has been a later insertion into this text precisely because of the controversy surrounding the Trinitarian question.The following quotation is 1 John 5:7-8 and the interpolation (which even the KJV recognizes in a marginal note) is reproduced in bold type :

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For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one.

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And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.

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AmlodhiThis message has been edited by Amlodhi, 11-11-2004 04:02 PM

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Originally posted by Legend

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. . . are you implying that 1 John 5:7-8 was originally one verse . . .

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Hi Legend,There were no verse divisions in the original Greek, but yes, that is basically the case.The eight late manuscripts with the longer reading are cited in the following:

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5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement. --NET Bible

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Before toV pneu'ma kaiV toV u{dwr kaiV toV ai|ma, the Textus Receptus reads ejn tw'/ oujranw'/, oJ pathvr, oJ lovgo", kaiV toV a{gion pneu'ma, kaiV ou|toi oiJ trei'" e{n eijsi. 5:8 kaiV trei'" eijsin oiJ marturou'nte" ejn th'/ gh'/ (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth). This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidenceboth external and internalis decidedly against its authenticity. Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence.1

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>> This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. <<

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Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin). This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity.2 The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church.

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Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D. (Bold and >> << emphasis for manuscript attestation added)

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Page not found | Bible.org

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You can also find exhaustive manuscript attestation for this passage in the Nestle-Aland NT text:

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. . . the (in)famous "Comma Johanneum" . . . a glance at the data in the critical apparatus of Nestle-Aland (which is exhaustive for this passage) should make any further comment unnecessary to demonstrate the secondary nature of this addition and the impossibility of its being at all related to the original form of the text of 1 John.

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(The Text of the New Testament ; Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland; William B. Eerdmans Pub.; Grand Rapids, Michigan)

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Amlodhi