EvC Forum: How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Hi Angel,

I must say, I agree with you on your stance against the Trinity. I am not a Trinitarian either. I believe in One God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit whom God sends.

If there has something that has already been discussed, please forgive me as I wish to add a few comments but have not had the time to thoroughly review this thread.

There are numerous verses throughout scripture that completely contradict the doctrine of the trinity. Trinitarians believe that there are three Gods--which are three, co-equal, co-eternal Gods, each in his own right. The Bible does teach that there are three persons, but Trinitarians take these verses to mean that they each must be a "God" in his own right, and none came before the other. Trinitarians believe that the Father/Son relationship was a "role play"--where it was decided in heaven who should play the role as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians also believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 100% equal with one another, and together are "one". However, Trinitarians also fail to realize that the Father GAVE the Son THIS EQUALITY.

"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;"--John 5:26

This verse makes it very plain and simple that the Son was not always equal with the Father, as only the Father was able to give the Son to have life in himself.

Now it is not for us to speculate on all the whys and wherefores as to how it is possible for Christ to be begotten. Nevertheless, the scriptures clearly reveal that Christ was begotten of the Father. Now let us look at another declaration. The translators of the old bibles from Hebrew to English recognized that Proverbs 8:22-30 was a reference to Christ. In fact, in some of these Bibles they put a heading referring to Christ above the declaration of Proverbs 8.

Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father--one in nature, in character, in purpose--the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

Let us now take a look what Proverbs 8:22-30 says:

8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

8:24 When there were no depths, I was BROUGH FORTH; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

So here we know absolutely that this is referring to Christ concerning himself. Now what is He telling us? He is taking us back to a dateless past, before the earth was created, in the beginning of God's way, and He is making a startling announcement that He was born of the Father. What does "brought forth" mean? Well even the NIV tells us that this means "given birth". But if we go to the original word in the Hebrew, it always is a reference having to do with birth.

We need to be very specific here for we cannot afford to make any mistake.

In Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, the word "brought forth" is identified by the number 2342. This same Hebrew word can be found elsewhere in the scriptures and translated by different English words. For instance, Job 39:1 "cans't thou mark when the hinds do calve?" So the word "calve" is the same word in Hebrew referring to Christ being brought forth.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me". The word shapen again is the same word for "brought forth". The same goes for Isaiah 51:2 "Look unto Abraham your father, and unto sarah that BARE you." The same goes for Isaiah 54:1 "break forth into singing, and cry aloud, though that dist not TRAVAIL with child."

We can easily determine from these words in scripture that the word "brought forth" as used in Proverbs 8:24,25 mean exactly one thing, and one thing only. It means "born". So are we going to trust what Christ is telling us in the Old Testament concerning Himself, that He was "born"?

It seems that any intelligent person wanting to take the word of God as it reads should be able to see that Christ is saying that He was born of the Father in some dateless past, not comprehensible to finite human beings. In fact, if there were no scriptures referring to Christ being born, then we could conclude that His sonship is just a "role play".

Christ brought men and women power to overcome. He came to this world in human form, to live a man amongst men. He assumed the liabilities of human nature, to be proved and tried. In His humanity He was a partaker of the divine nature. Now we must remember that in His incarnation He gained in a new sense the title of the Son of God. Said the angel to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). While the Son of a human being, He became the Son of God in a new sense. Thus He stood in our world--the Son of God, yet allied by birth to the human race.

Based on this understanding, you may see that Christ was the son of God in an old sense BEFORE His incarnation.

This is all I have to share for now regarding the Father/Son relationship. Perhaps I'll share more what I believe regarding the Holy Spirit. I pray that no one here is tempted to think that in order for Christ to be begotten of the Father there has to be a woman involved. Not only is that sheer nonesense to think like that--it is a downright lack of faith in God. All agree that God can do anything, correct? If one is to assume that God needs a woman for Christ to come from the Father, then that is limiting God in what He is able to do.

Remember, we are feeble human beings--unable to comprehend the things of God. We are raised in an environment to think that there must be a male and a female to initiate existence. However, to think this way alone is to forget that God was the one who CREATED procreation! If He can "create procreation", does God need a woman for such a thing to happen?

This is one outlandish argument numerous Trinitarians will use against you if you tell them that you believe that Christ came forth from the Father from eternity, so I thought I would bury that argument at once should its ugly head attempt to re-manifest itself.

This message has been edited by Lysimachus, 11-16-2004 01:36 PM

~Lysimachus

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