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Author | Topic: Is man inherently good or inherently evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets look at it another way. Lets say that you and I and Jar, for instance, are all on unemployment and are nearly broke. Economic times are hard and there are scant few jobs in America. One day, perchance, we each see an ad in the paper for Copper Mountain ski resort in Colorado. The resort promises that it needs workers and that the time of need is December, January, and February. The ad promises that each worker hired will receive $5000.00 after the ski season. What an opportunity! Everyone hired will make $5000.00! We all pack up to go. Jar gets there December 2nd. I get there December 28th. You can't make it until January 25th. Nonetheless, we all work hard while there, and on March 1st, we are all handed checks. Happily, we all go home. Later, we happen to be talking on a chat board and discover that each of us received $5000.00. Is this fair?
Consider:
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Each of us was paid by the good graces of the employer No, we weren't. We were paid in exchange for services rendered. You don't get paid because your employer is a nice person. You get paid because employment is an exchange of time for payment. This principle, for instance, is how we're able to compel a minimum wage from employers, or why employers have to pay overtime.
Later, we happen to be talking on a chat board and discover that each of us received $5000.00. Is this fair? Yes, because the terms were laid out in advance. It was made clear by the ad that, if I decided not to show up until the end of January, I'd get paid the same. (What I can't figure out is why you showed up early. Sucker!) That wasn't the case in the Bible example. The employer says "one dinar (or whatever) for a day's work"; but that only applies to the first group. The last group gets an entirely different pay scheme. If the employer was willing to pay a whole dinar for only two hours work, he should have said so, so that the first employees didn't wind up volunteering 6 hours of their time for nothing.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Crashfrog, you have not thought this one over! First of all, you use an erroneus example:
Suppose you and your black friend go to the store. You see a sign that says "bananas, $1 a bunch for white people, $10 a bunch for black people." Not a good comparison. Say that you go to the store at 9 a.m. and see a sign that says "fill out our survey and receive free bunch of Bananas. Later, your friend comes in and sees another sign that says "thanks for coming in. Have a free bunch of Bananas.Are you mad that you had to fill out a survey and your friend did not? Seriously, your entire concept of fairness is in comparison with other people. You know what the parable is about. I know you are atheist, but lets assume that God is real. Lets assume that He is good, and that being taken to Heaven or to a better level is the best thing that any human could hope for. Now...there are three people.
Confronted with the obvious reality, the atheist still looks away, prefering the safety of his own wisdom. God still says to come to Heaven. The first group are appalled. They ask God, "Why are you giving that ungrateful loser a break?" God says "What of it? Are you mad because you worked so hard to get to Heaven while this atheist has done nothing?? Is it not up to me to ask him in?" OK, Crashfrog---Fair or Unfair? --------------------------------------------------------------
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This was a good answer, so I thought I'd show you the link:
Bible Contradictions and Answers Check out the whole series of questions answered and tell me what you think.....>>Cheers. Phatboy
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Not a good comparison. In fact, it's a perfect comparison. We're talking about different wages and prices for different people, which is unfair.
Later, your friend comes in and sees another sign that says "thanks for coming in. Have a free bunch of Bananas.Are you mad that you had to fill out a survey and your friend did not? We're not talking about a survey, Phatboy. We're talking about hours of backbreaking labor.
Seriously, your entire concept of fairness is in comparison with other people. Yes. That's how we know what is fair, and what is not - comparing.
You know what the parable is about. Yes, I do know. But you need ot think the parable through, because then, you'll see why its such a bad parable. Back to our asshole employer. What do you think happened the next day, when he went back to the square to hire workers for the day? Do you think he found a single person willing to work any more than the last two hours of the day? Since he's demonstrated that he won't pay for any more than two hours' work, no matter how long you work, why would he?
OK, Crashfrog---Fair or Unfair? Works for me. But then, I don't insist that the afterlife be all about revenge. Each of those people lived the life they wanted to live. Now, on the other hand, the ascetic monk who winds up in the same heaven as my debaucherous ass might have some reason to complain, but then, it's not like God actually told him to live that way.
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Guys, hasn't it occured to you that life isn't fair?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Guys, hasn't it occured to you that life isn't fair? Has it occured to you that life is just as fair as we decide it should be?
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 507 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Who is "we"? I am all for fairness. It's the fundies that are fighting to make society as unfair as possible.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
dpardo responds to me:
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? Remove the very term we're discussing and you think you're talking about the same thing? You can't just remove the contentious word and then claim there is nothing to contend.
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? You didn't just paraphrase. You did a hatchet job. "Without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work" is in no way paraphraseable to "who is impartial." You're completely missing the second half of the statement: How is god impartial? By what criteria is god being impartial? What is god being impartial about? That's right: Every man's work. The point behind god's action is examination of a person's work. And in the end, you completely avoid the question. It's very simple and I wish you would answer it directly: Why is god judging? What is the result of the judgement? Is god going to give you a car? What is the point of the judgement? If god judges you and doesn't find you wanting, what do you get?
quote:quote: Non sequitur. That's an answer to "how" and I asked you "why." I don't care about the process god is using. I want to know the purpose of the process.
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? Where in 1 Peter do you find anything except discussion of salvation? A judge in a courtroom can be involved in felonies or misdemeanors, but if the case is regarding murder, then it is necessarily about a felony. That god can do other kinds of judgement is irrelevant. We're talking about the kind of judgement discussed in 1 Peter. Where is there any indication that 1 Peter is talking about something other than salvation?
quote: That's in direct contradiction to what Peter just said. He just said that their salvation is based upon god's judgement of their works:
without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work quote: Who cares? We're not talking about Psalms. We're talking about 1 Peter. Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Phatboy responds to me:
quote: And two-thirds or the world disagrees with you. Why should anybody believe you over them?
quote: a) I don't claim to be atheist. I also don't claim not be atheist. b) The reason I don't is because it is irrelevant. I am not the one claiming that something will or won't happen to your immortal soul or regarding the existence of such a thing. c) Where is this "god concept" coming from with regard to an atheist? Isn't that defeating the entire purpose of atheism?
quote: And so have the gods of the rest of the world. Why should anybody believe you over them? And throughout that history, there have been those who lament the existence of those who do not believe. Atheism is as old as, if not older than, theism.
quote: Incorrect. Just because two million people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing.
quote: Where was it agreed upon that I had one? And why does it matter if I do or not? Does the validity of any of my statements change depending upon my belief status? Rrhain WWJD? JWRTFM!
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Hi Rrhain,
"You did not just say that, did you? You didn't just paraphrase. You did a hatchet job. "Without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work" is in no way paraphraseable to "who is impartial." You're completely missing the second half of the statement: How is god impartial? By what criteria is god being impartial? What is god being impartial about? That's right: Every man's work. The point behind god's action is examination of a person's work. And in the end, you completely avoid the question. It's very simple and I wish you would answer it directly: Why is god judging? What is the result of the judgement? Is god going to give you a car? What is the point of the judgement? If god judges you and doesn't find you wanting, what do you get?" Your question of "Why is god judging?", does not follow, logically, from Peter's statement. Peter's statement in 1Peter 1:17:
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: as I have stated before, can be reasonably translated as:
"And if you call on God, who is impartial, pass the time of your stay here in fear." The reason it is more reasonable than your interpretation is because Peter goes on to say that we are redeemed (saved) through the blood of Jesus in the subsequent verses. Your interpretation results in Peter contradicting himself (and Paul) in the same chapter. Does that seem likely?
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
as I have stated before, can be reasonably translated as: "And if you call on God, who is impartial, pass the time of your stay here in fear." The reason it is more reasonable than your interpretation is because Peter goes on to say that we are redeemed (saved) through the blood of Jesus in the subsequent verses. But it doesn't say that at all. In fact, it returns again to the issue of behavior as so many of the passages throughtout the NT do. 1Peter:22
22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: The issue for so many of the fathers of the church was to diferentiate between the older tradition of buying forgivness through offerings and the newer requirment that you actually live a good life. It is saying that it is not by how much you have, not by who you are, not by how many offerings you make through the priests, but rather through your life, your actions, that you will be judged. It goes back to the two Great Commandments, Love GOD and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. These are action commandments. They are not philosophy, not profession, not belief. They say DO. Do love, do for others. Do stuff. It is quite clear. Peter is saying that GOD will judge you by your actions, not by your position or words. Look at verse 18:
18: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; This is saying the same thing. It's not the wealth that you accumulate, it's not your position, it's not following the rules laid down in Leviticus, it is not through professions of faith or belief; it is what YOU do and WHY YOU DO IT that is important. It's not doing good for gain, it's about doing good because that is the right, the godly thing to do. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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dpardo Inactive Member |
The issues that Rrhain and I are discussing are:
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Peter says it is through works.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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dpardo Inactive Member |
Hi Rrhain,
I went back to your original post that I first responded to concerning your statements of faith vs. works. I realized we were going OT and was wondering how that got started. Anyway, I just realized that you also said this:
Rrhain writes: "Notice you pick up two contradictions, but they're essentially variations of the same problem: What is the nature of man. One is saying we're born that way, another is saying we have to do it." Can you show me, in your post, where Peter and Paul said these things?
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