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Author Topic:   A discussion of Gun Control for schrafinator
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 316 of 409 (129911)
08-02-2004 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by nator
08-02-2004 11:38 PM


There is a requirement that a dealer at a gun show must do background checks.
Private sales are private sales. No loophole.
Do you even oppose something as easy as requiring a private seller to get the name of who they are selling to?
Personally, I get some info when I sell a gun just for my own feelgood.
I would have no problem getting someone to get a name and id from a buyer, but I would oppose having to turn that information in.
I really don't see a problem with the current system and don't see private sales as much of a threat. Afterall, even the checks through the dealers have been pretty much a total waste of time and effort.
Let's explore your concept on private sales for a moment. How will you know when someone sells a gun?
As to having statistics on the percentage of tables not selling firearms, nope. Only experience. That isn't something that, TTBOMK, is recorded anywhere.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by nator, posted 08-02-2004 11:38 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by nator, posted 08-03-2004 1:18 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 320 of 409 (129987)
08-03-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by nator
08-03-2004 1:18 AM


Well, nice pontification, Scraf.
Now let's return to the discussion.
I asked
Let's explore your concept on private sales for a moment. How will you know when someone sells a gun?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by nator, posted 08-03-2004 1:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by nator, posted 08-03-2004 11:09 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 322 of 409 (129993)
08-03-2004 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by nator
08-03-2004 11:09 AM


Of course. We have already said that there will be private sales there. Or in the parking lot. Or across the street. Or over the internet. Or at home.
What does that have to do with anything?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by nator, posted 08-03-2004 11:09 AM nator has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 327 of 409 (130617)
08-05-2004 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by nator
08-05-2004 9:21 AM


How about the question
I asked in post 320 and earlier in 316?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 9:21 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 9:34 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 337 of 409 (130655)
08-05-2004 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by contracycle
08-05-2004 9:33 AM


Well, it appears that you really cannot read.
.. while having argued vehemently earlier that truly responsible gun owners do not need to lock their guns up becuase they are so responsible.
If you could read you would see that I said it was a sad comment that we have reached a society where it was necessary to lock the guns up.
No, if we take your guns we will REDUCE the danger both to you and those around you.
That may well be your opinion.
How, pray tell, will that have made anything safer?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 9:33 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 12:07 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 338 of 409 (130657)
08-05-2004 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by nator
08-05-2004 9:34 AM


Re: How about the question
Not quite enough. Responsible gun sellers already try to make sure they are following all the laws. So nothing wouold really change.
The problem is the irresponsible ones.
So once again, how about explaining how your private sales system would work?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 9:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 5:51 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 340 of 409 (130681)
08-05-2004 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by contracycle
08-05-2004 12:07 PM


By reducing the probability that he and his family will die from a gun-related accident to nearely nil.
But that probability is already nil. As I have said before, in 50+ years of handling guns, only one has ever attacked me. And that attack was by an M-1 and upon my thumb.
By reducing the capacity for domestic violence to result in a fatality.
Nonsense. Trust me, it is possible for domestic violence to end up as a fatality using methods other than guns.
Even by making attempted suicides more probably survivable; people have second thoughts.
Irrelevant.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by contracycle, posted 08-05-2004 12:07 PM contracycle has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 344 of 409 (130799)
08-05-2004 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by nator
08-05-2004 5:51 PM


Re: How about the question
Then let's step back.
How will you know when a private sale is made?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 5:51 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 8:35 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 361 of 409 (131117)
08-06-2004 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by nator
08-06-2004 8:35 PM


Re: How about the question
Well, let's explore that.
The goal is to keep the BGs from buying guns through private parties.
Well, there is no paperwork to turn in to law enforcement even now, including from Dealers unless the person buys more than two guns in a seven day period.
Second, in a private sale there is no external trigger to show that anything happened. Those who wish to get around it simply won't report it. So what would it accomplish? What is the mechanism that would help?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 8:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 9:53 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 363 of 409 (131168)
08-06-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by nator
08-06-2004 9:53 PM


Re: How about the question
I think that registering guns with their owners, and licensing people to own and operate firearms, just like we register cars with their owners and require a basic knowledge of how to operate a vehicle and the traffic laws, would be a great idea.
Well, that's where you and I will have to disagree. Registration is one of the first steps in the chain towards confiscation, and it's one that no gun owner will take graciously.
At leat there would be a paper trail if the gun was used in a crime, perhaps telling law enforcement where the perpetrator was at one time.
Well, if the gun has been recovered it's usually pretty easy to trace it back to its source even today. If the gun has not been recovered, it's pretty close to impossible to trace it anyway.
So just to make sure we all understand how things like that work, can you give us a short summary of how you think gun tracing or ballistic identification works? I think it would be worthwhile to actually go through the steps since there is a lot of missinformation about that shown in the movies.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 9:53 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 10:29 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 365 of 409 (131172)
08-06-2004 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by nator
08-06-2004 10:29 PM


Re: How about the question
We'll come back to criminal background checks and the public services, but basically, the public services are about as accurate as some of the credit reports. Been trying to get one of them straightened out for a friend for nearly three years now. LOL
If it's in the constitution, and you own your guns legally, why should you fear?
Because I see signs near daily of our government trying to take away rights that were assured under the Constitution. No sense making it easy.
So how about explaining to us how you believe tracing, guns or bullets are done?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 10:29 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 10:44 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 368 of 409 (131183)
08-06-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by nator
08-06-2004 10:44 PM


Re: How about the question
Why do you disbelieve the FBI when they say that gun shows are a significant source of guns for criminal activity?
well, I have not been able to find that quote from the FBI, only references from HCI and they have about the same credibility as ICR or Dr. Dino.
An analysis by David B. Kopel (an associate policy analyst at the Cato Institute) shows far different statistics.
Yet HCI claims that "25-50 percent of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers." That statistic is true only if one counts vendors who aren't selling guns (e.g., vendors who are selling books, clothing or accessories) as "unlicensed dealers."
Denver congresswoman Diana DeGette says that 70 percent of guns used in crimes come from gun shows. The true figure is rather different, according to the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 ("Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities," a report that covers much more than homicide), only 2 percent of criminal guns come from gun shows.
That finding is consistent with a mid-1980s study for the NIJ, which investigated the gun purchase and use habits of convicted felons in 12 state prisons. The study (later published as the book Armed and Considered Dangerous) found that gun shows were such a minor source of criminal gun acquisition that they were not even worth reporting as a separate figure.
At the most recent meeting of the American Society of Criminology, a study of youthful offenders in Michigan found that only 3 percent of the youths in the study had acquired their last handgun from a gun show. (Of course some criminal gun acquisition at gun shows is perpetrated by "straw purchasers" who are legal gun buyers acting as surrogates for the individual who wants the gun. Straw purchases have been federal felonies since 1968.)
But back on the thread, can you please explain how you understand tracing of guns or bullets is done? This is related to what we are discussing. You have said that private sellers of guns should keep records. You said that it would provide a paper trail if a gun was used in a crime. For that to happen, it is necessary to understand how the process would work. So, please, answer the question.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 10:44 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 11:19 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 371 of 409 (131208)
08-06-2004 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by nator
08-06-2004 11:19 PM


Re: How about the question
Well, I've been over the ATF site and haven't found that yet. Can you help?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 11:19 PM nator has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 372 of 409 (131209)
08-06-2004 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by nator
08-06-2004 11:04 PM


If criminal background checks for private sales became the law, then a private seller would be held accountable if they sell a gun to someone who is a criminal.
Again, how would that work. To be effective there would need to be some way of tracking the gun's histroy. That brings us back to the process of tracking. Can you explain how you think that works?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by nator, posted 08-06-2004 11:04 PM nator has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 379 of 409 (131308)
08-07-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 329 by nator
08-05-2004 9:32 AM


Re: Misconception about the Constitution and Bill of Rights
Scraf says:
As such, there are several companies which produce very popular low quality handguns that are used frequently in criminal activity.
Theses guns generally fail the "drop test" in which they often will discharge when dropped.
Here's an example:
But then publishes a report showing the Raven Arms was the number one crime gun.
First, the frequency of being listed in statistics says nothing about it failing the Drop test.
Second, the quote about Raven Arms is also slightly missleading. I happen to be familar with that BATF information and what it is refering to is "Guns recovered at crime scenes".
Guns recovered really has no relationship to guns used or even total crimes. While the very cheap guns from the Davis/Jennings family are the most commonly recovered guns at a crime scene for decades, the reason has nothing to do with safety, it's because they are cheap. They are the kind of gun that the criminal doesn't mind loosing or droping. They are also pretty unreliable.
But in those same studies of recovered firearms, there are also major difference based on age. Not surprisingly, the younger criminals choose cheaper guns by far. Since those in the under 25 category make up a very large percentage of the total crime population, it is also not surprising that cheaper guns are more common.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 9:32 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by contracycle, posted 08-09-2004 11:45 AM jar has replied

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