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Author Topic:   Are flightless birds a reversion?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 31 of 44 (419326)
09-02-2007 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-01-2007 3:37 PM


or is it possible that they are simply part of an evolutionary chain where flight never evolved?
no.
i'm not the best person to ask, really, because i'm one of those people that holds the attitube of "just what the hell is a bird, anyways?" all birds, however, seem to decended from a single flying ancestor, something very much like archaeopteryx.
it's interesting to note that flight seems to have, at the very least, been lost repeatedly by birds. possibly re-evolved. it's even quite possible that some dinosaurs we know and love (like velociraptor) evolved from ancestors that flew (archaeopteryx seems to be relatively close to the ancestral deinonychosaur). essentially modern birds were living in the cretaceous, and soon after the death of the dinosaurs, and until just two million years ago, we had giant terror birds running around filling essentially dinosaurian niches.
oh, and i was going to make a separate thread about this later -- did you hear we've got another example of a cenozoic dinosaur? apparently, dinosaurs only died about sixty-FOUR million years ago, and seem to have survived the asteroid impact by about a million years.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 33 of 44 (419491)
09-03-2007 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by RAZD
09-02-2007 10:19 PM


Re: jaws
this might help:

(source)


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 37 of 44 (420077)
09-06-2007 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
09-03-2007 7:03 AM


Re: wing vs limb elements
It appears that modern and ancient paleognaths have, or had, carpometacarpuses.
because the development of a carpometacarpus so wonderfully recapitulates the evolutionary history of the bird, it's actually totally possible for some birds to simply re-develop claws and such thought neotonoy.
i'm not sure about ratite claws. i've heard mixed information, and i'm no ornithologist.
Besides which, they and the neognaths are all neornithes together, so for their common ancestor to be flightless, something very odd must have happened.
well, very odd things DID happen. the question is whether this is a plausibility. the answer in this case, however, is "no."


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 38 of 44 (420079)
09-06-2007 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Quetzal
09-05-2007 8:11 PM


Re: Ratites Shmatites
Additionally, I prefer to consider secondary flightlessness an adaptation rather than a "loss of ability". Since the biological energy cost of powered flight is apparently quite high, it might be better to consider flightlessness a "plus" rather than a "loss" in those lineages whose genetic plasticity allows this adaptation. In other words, flightless rails can, at least in some sense, be considered more derived than their flighted predecessors.
i find it interesting that flightlessness is actually such an advantage that birds keep secondarily loosing flight.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 40 of 44 (420216)
09-06-2007 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Quetzal
09-06-2007 4:55 PM


Re: Ratites Shmatites
well, that can't be entirely true. we never seem to see, for instance, warm blooded animals "reverting" to cold blooded. at least, none that i am personally aware of. yet, cold bloodedness is VASTLY superior in terms of energy usage. cold blooded animals simply do not need to catch and eat as much food, because they do not have to worry about keeping up body temperature with their metabolism.
this is probably because no one particular advantage is weighed in a vacuum. it is the combination of factors and how they interact that matters most.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1375 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 42 of 44 (420236)
09-06-2007 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by RAZD
09-06-2007 10:40 PM


Re: Ratites Shmatites
okay, that's just really cool.

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