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Author Topic:   Are flightless birds a reversion?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1 of 44 (419219)
09-01-2007 3:37 PM


As we learn more and more of the history of birds, I wonder if any/all flightless birds are examples of losing capabilities or simply examples of an original state? Is there any evidence that Reas and Ostriches as examples once flew, or is it possible that they are simply part of an evolutionary chain where flight never evolved?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
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Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 44 (419222)
09-01-2007 3:41 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 3 of 44 (419223)
09-01-2007 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-01-2007 3:37 PM


Hawaiian Goose
Hawaian State Bird is Canadian
I don't know about those specific examples but here is one that was/is a "revision".
The Geese of Hawaii are all Canadians!

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 44 (419225)
09-01-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-01-2007 3:37 PM


No Fossil Record
Asside from a fossil record of these birds, how can science and/or archeology have an answer to your question? I suppose all you can do is speculate and of course when we speculate we tend to lean towards what is supportive of our respective ideologies.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 44 (419226)
09-01-2007 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
09-01-2007 4:02 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
What makes you think there is no fossil record?
What makes you think other routes might not be applicable such as genetics?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 44 (419230)
09-01-2007 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
09-01-2007 4:05 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
I googled fossil record for reas and ostrages and came up empty. Do you have some applicable to your OP which can share with us?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 44 (419233)
09-01-2007 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
09-01-2007 4:55 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
I googled fossil record for reas and ostrages and came up empty.
Well, try ostrich and you might have more luck. It appears that the Ostrich and other similar birds are part of the "Ratite" with fossils going back to around 100 million years or more ago. The superorder Paleognathae also seems to have a long fossil history.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 837 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 8 of 44 (419235)
09-01-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-01-2007 5:05 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
jar writes:
Well, try ostrich and you might have more luck. It appears that the Ostrich and other similar birds are part of the "Ratite" with fossils going back to around 100 million years or more ago. The superorder Paleognathae also seems to have a long fossil history.
I've been poking around the net and some college databases for the last few hours and I can't find anything beyond ostriches and other large flightless birds are related by morphology and DNA analysis and that they apparently evolved into separate species from a common ancestor due to the split up of Gondwanaland.
The timing of the split according to biology is supported by the timing of the split of Gondwanaland according to geology. Another of the thousands of examples of how the natural sciences are mutually supportive.
So either I missed something, it is not present in the resources I have available, or the connection to the exact flyin' critter in the genealogy just isn't there or has not yet been discovered.
My personal bet is it just awaits discovery, but I have been known to have been wrong before and will freely admit it if shown to my satisfaction.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 44 (419237)
09-01-2007 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by anglagard
09-01-2007 5:45 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
Well, as it becomes more likely that many of the dinosaurs that evolved into what we know as birds were feathered, it would seem at least possible that some of the feathered dinos might have evolved yet never developed flight.
If that is the case, then the flightless birds in that category might provide insight into dinosaurs generally.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 44 (419244)
09-01-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-01-2007 6:21 PM


wing vs limb elements
Interesting thought. I would think the evidence would be in the wing\hand bones, with the fusing typical of flight wings being either found or not found.
Enjoy
ps -- don't forget the Moa, you know ...
Moa - Wikipedia
quote:
Moa were giant flightless birds native to New Zealand. They were unique in having no wings, not even small wings, unlike other ratites.
See the skeleton shown for a giant moa, no vestiges ...

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 44 (419246)
09-01-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
09-01-2007 7:31 PM


Re: wing vs limb elements
I agree. I have been trying to find wing structure information on some of the ancestral critters like the Elephant Bird, but so far with little luck. I'm hoping some of our members that actually know stuff can come to my rescue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 12 of 44 (419248)
09-01-2007 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
09-01-2007 7:37 PM


Re: wing vs limb elements
Does this help?
Cooper, A., C. Lalueza-Fox, S. Anderson, A. Rambaut, J.Austin, and R.Ward. 2001. Complete mitochondrial genome sequences of two extinct moas clarify ratite evolution. Nature 409:704-707.
And there's an elephant bird bibliography ("Literature & Links") here:
Digimorph - Aepyornis (elephant bird)

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 44 (419250)
09-01-2007 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
09-01-2007 5:05 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
Your topic question reminds me of the coelacanth fish, similar to the lungfishes with fins in the areas of the body where legs would likely be if they evolved, all of which would seem to relate them to tetrapods, allegedly the first vertebrate animals on earth.
These fish, thought to be millions of years extinct, exist with fins in tact on earth today, having adapted from fresh water to salt and having adapted the lung somewhat to a deep water purpose. They relatively recently found them again as we are all aware. They are closely related to lungfishes, as well as having fins located where legs would be. This all could be and once did relate them to linking the alleged first tetrapods, too, tetrapods being the alleged first vertebrate animals to walk the earth.
Perhaps the ostriges which don't fly could be analogous to the coelacanth which after alleged millions of years still does not walk, still having lung-like features and having fins where legs would be had it evolved.
From what I understand, science once applied the coelacanth to the evolution debate but have had to scrapped that. Likely, like the coelacanth, the ostrage has always been basically what it now appears to be, an intelligent designer having designed it to be useful, unique and for other purposes the designer has for it's existence.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 14 of 44 (419252)
09-01-2007 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-01-2007 8:15 PM


Re: No Fossil Record
Likely, like the coelacanth, the ostrage has always been basically what it now appears to be
The coelocanth that is alive today is not the same species (or even the same genus) as the ones found in the fossil record, so no it hasn't always been what it now appears to be.
the coelacanth fish, similar to the lungfishes with fins in the areas of the body where legs would likely be if they evolved
and having fins where legs would be had it evolved.
Again not the same as it was in the past, ergo it has evolved.
having adapted from fresh water to salt and having adapted the lung somewhat to a deep water purpose
see you even admit that it has evolved.

Live every week like it's Shark Week!
Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

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molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2642 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 15 of 44 (419253)
09-01-2007 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-01-2007 8:15 PM


Ostrige... Ostrage...
Perhaps the ostriges which don't fly could be analogous to the coelacanth which after alleged millions of years still does not walk, still having lung-like features and having fins where legs would be had it evolved.
Is this your version of "Coelacanths are unchanging forms that show no evidence of evolution" aka "living fossils refute evolution"?

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