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Author Topic:   Dogs will be Dogs will be ???
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 331 (438702)
12-05-2007 8:00 PM


Time for a little definition of what macroevolution is.
A common creationist argument is that evolution does not show that a sufficient level of change can be demonstrated to have occurred in the fossil record, and that thousands of years of breeding of dogs has not produced something that is not a dog:
"The fossil record shows variations of all sorts of things but will time turn a dog kind into something that we would say is clearly not a dog?"
Beretta, Message 7
There are several issues involved in this question. One is just how much change is necessary to convince a creationist that large scale change has occurred. Another is whether macroevolution is defined by large scale change.
A final one is determining what you really means by "something that is not a dog" as "something" is not a very well defined scientific term. Do you mean when will a dog become a new species that is not a part of the wolf species (which we take as the basal dog from which all others have descended)? Or that it will become something that is as different from a wolf as say a domestic cat is from a fox?
To answer these questions let's do a little comparative anatomy:
Red Fox
Red fox - Wikipedia
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Vulpes
Species: V. vulpes
House Cat
Cat - Wikipedia
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Felidae
Genus: Felis
Species: F. silvestris
Subspecies: F. s. catus
Where the standard for comparison of features is the extremes of variation within the dog varieties from the wolf, and that have been artificially bred by humans over the last several thousands of years
Dog
Dog - Wikipedia
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Subspecies: C. l. familiaris
Wolf
Wolf - Wikipedia
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
The question will be whether the difference in the traits between the cat and the red fox is MORE or LESS than the maximum differences found in varieties of dogs from the wolf. We'll call this factor "deltaFactor" with these categories:
  +3 = much more difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
+2 = more difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
+1 = a little more difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
0 = no difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
-1 = a little less difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
-2 = less difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
-3 = much less difference between cat and fox than between dog and wolf
Trait House Cat Red Fox deltaFactor
Nose small small -2
Whiskers long long -2
Tooth size small small -3
Tooth type carnassial pair canine +1
Tongue keratin hooks standard +2
food carnivorous carnivorous -3
Snout small/short small/long -3
Eyes 2 2 0
Eye pupils slitted slitted 0
Eye color several gold/yellow 0
Ears 2 2 0
Ear shape Pointed Pointed -3
Ear size small small -3
Ear control good good -3
Head size small small -3
Neck short short -3
body size small small -3
legs 4 4 0
leg/body length short short -3
paws 4 4 0
claws 5x4 5x4 0
Claws retractable not +3
Tail long long -3
Fur short to long long -2
Fur type straight straight -3
....

(subtotal) -36
(average so far) -1.44
Those are most of the visible differences. Feel free to add to the list with whatever comes to mind. In a lot of the -3 cases the needle is pegged at much much less difference between cat and fox than between the extreme varieties of dog and wolf.
When we compare the skeletons, we can match bone for bone from cat to fox to dog to wolf, but we see much more variation in size and proportions between dog and wolf than between cat and fox. There are no bones that are special to cats or foxes or dogs. This can be counted as a -3 x number of bones.
For additional comparisons see:
Cat skeleton
Red Fox skeleton
Dog skeleton
Wolf skeleton
When we compare internal organs, we can match organ for organ from cat to fox to dog, but we see much more variation in size and proportions between dog and wolf than between cat and fox. There are no organs that are special to cats or foxes or dogs. This can be counted as a -3 x number of organs.
Conclusion: from feature to feature to feature, a cat is more similar to a red fox than some dogs are like wolves.
The dog is in the species C. lupus
The wolf is in the species C. lupus
The taxon level where dogs and wolves are related is in the C. lupis species.
The dog is in the genus Canis
The wolf is also in the genus Canis
The fox is in the species V. vulpes
The fox is in the genus Vulpes
The taxon level where dogs, wolves and foxes are related is in the Canidae family
The cat is in the species F. silvestris
The cat is in the genus Felis
The domestic cat is in the Felidae family
The taxon level where cats and foxes (and dogs and wolves) are related is in the Order Carnivora.
By biological evolution standards this means that there is greater macroevolutionary 'distance' between cats and foxes than between foxes and dogs and much more macroevolutionary 'distance' between cats and foxes than there is between dogs and wolves, and certainly much more than exists within the dog species, yet not much difference is involved.
Conclusion: "large scale change" (amount of difference) is not a measure of macroevolution ... as used by evolutionary biologists. If you want to discuss what macroevolution really is in biology you can go to MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?.
Back to the original quote:
"The fossil record shows variations of all sorts of things but will time turn a dog kind into something that we would say is clearly not a dog? "
Beretta, Message 7
So what would you like this to become?
Would a horse be enough? Would you dispute that a horse is clearly not a dog?
So the questions that creationists must answer are:
(1) If your definition of macroevolution is different from evolutionary biology what is it?
(2) Why do you think it is a valid definition?
(3) How much change is necessary?
(4) Why isn't the difference between cat and fox a valid criteria?
We'll start with those - and see what turns up.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : changed dog/dog to dog/wolf for clarity
Edited by RAZD, : changed dog/dog to dog/wolf for clarity
Edited by RAZD, : " & clarity
Edited by RAZD, : late night repair work
Edited by RAZD, : more corrections
Edited by RAZD, : added thread link
Edited by RAZD, : clarity.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : title spling

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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 12-08-2007 10:45 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 19 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 10:29 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 72 by randman, posted 06-01-2008 11:27 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 266 by RAZD, posted 02-25-2012 9:24 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 331 (439354)
12-08-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
12-08-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Time for a little definition of what macroevolution is.
I'd like to point out that physical characteristics are not the only things that define a species ...
The point of this thread is to show that the physical characteristics that creationists use to define "large scale change" are not that different from species to species.
Compared to the difference between a fox and a domestic cat, which are different "kinds" in any creationist classification I've seen, the changes that we see in dogs represents "large scale change" ... due to evolution under artificial selection.
The question has always been what do creationists define as "large scale change" ... other than using it as a smokescreen to hide their denial behind.
I know this is a little side tracked, but I think it is important to keep in mind, especially for creationists, that differences in appearance are not the only ways species are distinct from one another.
The creationist will just say that is microevolution, and that what they want is evidence that macroevolution occurs.
When you show them macroevolution occurring (in say the foram fossil record) they just say that doesn't show "real" macroevolution because it doesn't show "large scale change" occurring in species.
This thread is to define what "large scale change" means in reality and then see how it is shown in the fossil record.
It's for Beretta, TheWay, SomeoneWhoCares, and any creationist in denial of reality.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Taz, posted 12-08-2007 10:45 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Taz, posted 12-08-2007 12:30 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 46 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-06-2008 11:12 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 331 (439362)
12-08-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Taz
12-08-2007 12:30 PM


bump for beretta ... or other creationists
The purpose is to get a creationist definition of what "large scale change" is -- it is their criteria.
From Beretta again (Message 199):
Except with evolutionists -they have faith that evolution (large scale) has occurred despite the lack of evidence. Take RAZD's foraminifera for example - they remain foraminifera, that much is obvious but to him that is a pure example of evolution at its most obvious. How foraminifera could get the genetic info to change into something else with new and complex genetic information is what interests us that don't share the evolutionist's faith.I want to see foraminifera start to turn into something that does not just look like a type of foraminifera.
Notwithstanding the fact that the study in question only looked at foraminifera, and so it would exclude any evidence of forams that became non-forams, the problem for Beretta and others is that this does represent macroevolution as used in evolutionary biology by evolutionary biologists. Here's the excerpt from my post in question (Message 181):
In the interim I'll point out the evidence of Foraminifera:
Foraminifera - Wikipedia
quote:
The Foraminifera, ("Hole Bearers") or forams for short, are a large group of amoeboid protists with reticulating pseudopods, fine strands of cytoplasm that branch and merge to form a dynamic net.[1] They typically produce a test, or shell, which can have either one or multiple chambers, some becoming quite elaborate in structure.[2] About 275,000 species are recognized, both living and fossil. They are usually less than 1 mm in size, but some are much larger, and the largest recorded specimen reached 19 cm.
Scientific classification
Domain: Eukaryota
(unranked): Rhizaria
Phylum: Foraminifera
Orders:
Allogromiida
Carterinida
Fusulinida - extinct
Globigerinida
Involutinida - extinct
Lagenida
Miliolida
Robertinida
Rotaliida
Silicoloculinida
Spirillinida
Textulariida
incertae sedis
- Xenophyophorea
- Reticulomyxa

Geology Dept article 3
quote:
"There's a nifty passage in Darwin in which he describes the fossil record as a library. The library has only a few books, and each book has only a few chapters. The chapters have only a few words, and the words are missing letters.
"Well, in this case, we've got a relatively complete library. The 'books' are in excellent shape. You can see every page, every word."
As he spoke, Arnold showed a series of photographs, taken through a microscope, depicting the evolutionary change wrought on a single foraminiferan species.
"This is the same organism, as it existed through 500,000 years," Arnold said. "We've got hundreds of examples like this, complete life and evolutionary histories for dozens of species."
Counting both living and extinct animals, about 330 species of planktonic forams have been classified so far, Arnold said. After thorough examinations of marine sediments collected from around the world, micropaleontologists now suspect these are just about all the free-floating forams that ever existed. "We've literally seen hundreds of speciation events," Arnold added.
Adherents of Darwin's theory of gradualism, in which new species slowly branch off from original stock, should be delighted by what the FSU researchers have found. The foram record clearly reveals a robust, highly branched evolutionary tree, complete with Darwin's predicted "dead ends" -- varieties that lead nowhere -- and a profusion of variability in sizes and body shapes. Moreover, transitional forms between species are readily apparent, making it relatively easy to track ancestor species to their descendants.
We are not talking about a single species, but the origin of new species and then additional branching into more new species, the formation of genus and family - if not order - levels of the taxonomic tree of relationships between the different species of forams.
This is macroevolution - according to evolutionary biology - the formation of branches in the taxonomic classifications. This is but a small sample of the evidence that the tree of life is due to evolution.
You notice that Beretta did not argue with the record of change in hereditary traits in the population from generation to generation, nor with the evidence that speciation had occurred numerous times, nor with the evidence that branching above the level of speciation was also recorded in the foram fossil record. No, what Beretta did was to say that it is not enough change to satisfy him, or words to that effect. The fact that the change shown meets the criteria of macroevolution used by evolutionary biologists is irrelevant, for they just pull out the half-truth mixed with lie - that dogs will always be dogs, and forams will always be forams, and they will never become "something else" (which is undefined).
So the question for creationists is: how much change is needed to satisfy you?
If there is less "large scale change" between a cat and a red fox than there is between breeds of dog and a wolf, then how can "large scale change" be used to measure whether macroevolution has or has not occurred?
Denial of every piece of evidence only goes so far. "Something else" is not a scientific metric.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added another quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Taz, posted 12-08-2007 12:30 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Beretta, posted 12-13-2007 10:01 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 331 (440565)
12-13-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Beretta
12-13-2007 10:01 AM


Thanks Beretta
Thanks for replying Beretta.
Dinosaur to bird perhaps. Assumption that it happened is not the same as evidence. A bird such as archeopteryx has fully-formed wings -how did anything convert from no wings to wings with each step surviving better than the preceding step?
First of it is not a matter of "surviving better" but just of surviving and breeding. The evidence shows a clear development of increasingly bird like characteristics in one branch of dinosaurs, dinosaurs that have feathers covering their bodies even though they have no long feathers on their arms, and then dinosaurs with longer and longer feathers on their arms (and legs) until the point is reached where the dinosaur can fly. Plenty of intermediate fossils are now known that demonstrate this transition from non-flight to flight.
In each case they also show fully formed individuals capable of surviving and reproducing with other members of their species (the other intermediates that are similarly developed for increasing ability to jump, glide, fly. Just as "fully formed" as archaeopteryx is even thought "archy" shows clear differences to modern birds, birds that show further development by the same process of change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
See the list of similarities of features for non-flight dinosaur ancestors to "archy" provided by JB1740 in Message 9.
Why are we missing all those intermediates that help prove the case for wings being coded for in something that had no previous information for wings?
Because what you think happened is not what happened. The difference between non-flight wing and flight wing is very little. The non-flight wing only need provide a minor net advantage to the individuals for survival and reproduction, and being able to make a "glide/jump" a little further to catch prey or escape a predator is that advantage.
You assume forams came from non-forams but how? Don't you have something heading for a foram?
Forams are a Phylum in taxonomy.
http://www.msu.edu/%7Enixonjos/armadillo/taxonomy.html
quote:
Major Taxonomic Levels
. . Kingdom
. . . Phylum
. . . . Class
. . . . . Order
. . . . . . Family
. . . . . . . Genus
. . . . . . . . Species
Note: There are many subdivisions of the seven main taxonomic levels, such as Subphylum, Subclass, Infraclass, and so on. You may see many of these other sublevel taxa listed in the taxonomic tree of an organism.
"Macroevolution" - as defined and used in the science of evolutionary biology - is the accumulation of differences between groups above the level of species, differences that result from evolution within each species ("microevolution") in a different direction from other species. That means there is a lot of room for macroevolution between species and phylum and still be within foraminifera. For example, humans are in the phylum Chordata the group of animals that have a spinal chord, and which includes fish, but not worms.
.What if the first one was created and produced varieties of its own kind according to the genetic information available?
Then there would be no ancestors of forams.
It is not just me that is not satisfied -no ID proponent is satisfied as far as I know.
Ignorance of how evolution works does not make their opinion valid. Ignorance of what macroevolution really is and how it occurs does not make creationist or ID concepts valid, real or even worth considering. If they are using a definition that is different from the one above then they are not talking about the same macroevolution, they are discussing macroevolutionC and not macroevolutionE.
They speak of mammals turning into whales ...
But whales are still mammals.
... and dinosaurs turning into birds ...
And birds are still dinosaurs.
I'd like a leg changing into a wing to show that genetic wing information could conceivably arise by random mutation in a creature that had no wings.
What we have with the evolution of birds is the forelimb evolving into a feather covered forelimb and then into a wing that develops further once flight is achieved, but it is still a forelimb, it still has the bones, muscles and ligaments etc of forelimbs.
... even assuming an incomplete fossil record, there is too much missing between these things to convince me that new complex organs arrived by mutation and random directionless mutation at that.
That would be because you are neglecting natural selection, a mechanism that is not random.
Would you care to walk through an example of such a transition? One that shows the development of a unique feature that did not exist before?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : “ = "
” = "

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Beretta, posted 12-13-2007 10:01 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Beretta, posted 12-16-2007 10:55 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 331 (441136)
12-16-2007 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Beretta
12-16-2007 10:55 AM


Re: Example - Part 1: comparison of dog and eohippus skeletons
Thank you again for your response Beretta
Love to see it...
The starting point is a comparison of these two skeletons}
http://www.wsu.edu:8000/~crd/skeldog.html
quote:
Dog Skeleton, by Cheryl R. Dhein, Washington State University
and (sorry it's so dark, but I wanted the same general "pose" for the skeletons)
Eohippus | Size & Facts | Britannica
quote:
"dawn horse." Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 16-Dec-07
This establishes the basis for showing an example of the development of a unique feature that did not exist before. We have to start before the feature existed eh?
We don't need to worry about the skull and some other minor differences, because what I want to focus on is the legs and feet and how similar they are in size, proportion and position, with the foot showing splayed toes in the formation of a "paw" in both cases.
These animals wold be about the same size and weight and they would have similar walking, running and jumping ability, based on their similar skeletons.
Would you agree that these skeletons are similar in those features.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : changed links, flipped eohippus
Edited by RAZD, : sp subtitle
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Beretta, posted 12-16-2007 10:55 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Beretta, posted 12-17-2007 1:12 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 331 (441526)
12-17-2007 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Beretta
12-17-2007 1:12 AM


Re: Example - Part 1: comparison of dog and eohippus skeletons
Eohippus/dog similarities?
Yes, but only the general similarities we can see from these pictures are needed here -- size, general pose and proportions of bones, shape of the legs, shape of the feet.
There are a lot of differences that scientist studying the actual skeletons of the fossils would see that we can't, like the teeth or the claws:
Horse Evolution
quote:
This famous little equid was once known by the lovely name "Eohippus", meaning "dawn horse". Some Hyracotherium traits to notice:
  • 4 toes on each front foot, 3 on hind feet. Vestiges of 1st (& 2nd, behind) toes still present. Hyracotherium walked on pads; its feet were like a dog's padded feet, except with small "hoofies" on each toe instead of claws.
  • So there were differences as well as similarities.
    Argument from homology -predarwinian biologists called these structural similarites 'homologies' and attributed them to a common archetype or design. Darwin attributed them to inheritance from a common ancestor.
    How do we determine which is correct???
    We still call them homologies, and having a common ancestor also means they have a common archetype or design - the ancestor. Concepts are not necessarily contradictory.
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : sp
    Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Beretta, posted 12-17-2007 1:12 AM Beretta has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Beretta, posted 12-18-2007 1:13 AM RAZD has replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 16 of 331 (441550)
    12-18-2007 2:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 15 by Beretta
    12-18-2007 1:13 AM


    Re: Example - Part 1: comparison of dog and eohippus skeletons
    Thanks again Beretta,
    But where did the commonly designed ancestor come from? Was it designed or did it evolve from a random primitive unicellular organism?
    We can come back to this later, for now we can assume that dog and eohippus may or may not be related, but their past is not the question.
    We know there are some differences between them - one is carnivorous (meat eater) and the other is omnivorous (meat & vegetable eater}, so the teeth are different. We can also see differences in the skulls.
    But the question originally was what could dogs hypothetically become given enough time - and to answer that we start with an animal with similar size, shape, posture and feet from the fossil record, one ancient enough to show some "macroevolution" in later descendants.
    So we just need to look at the similarities of bones and their sizes and proportions, and at the shapes and posture of the legs and feet. We don't need to claim identity, just similarity.
    The way I see it they are totally contradictory.Did the complexity of the genome come from intelligence or randomly, following chemical and physical laws only?
    That would make an interesting topic. For now the question is: can we use eohippus and what it evolves into as an analogy to a dog and what can hypothetically happen in the future.
    Do the skeletons show overall general similarity in size, shape and posture, and do the feet in particular look similar, with toes and a "pad-footed paw" configuration, including "toenails"?
    They don't have to be identical, just similar enough to be analogous.
    If the answer is yes, then we can move on to the evolution from eohippus to later animals.
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : found eohippus was omnivorous not vegetarian (like horse)
    Edited by RAZD, : .
    Edited by RAZD, : subtitle sp
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
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    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 17 of 331 (447341)
    01-08-2008 10:26 PM


    Is this macro enough?
    From ICANT in message 106 of the "scientific theories taught as factual" thread, says:
    Beautiful 54 million year old picture of something.
    Yes "something" ...
    Something that - 55 million years ago, at a macro level ...
    ...• appears to be similar to a wolf\dog:
    ......• has a multi-toe paw like a wolf\dog
    ......• is the physical size of a wolf\dog
    ......• has the bone proportions of a wolf\dog
    ......• has the basic posture of a wolf\dog
    ......• etc
    ...• does not appear to be similar to a horse
    ......• does not have a single-toe hoof like a horse
    ......• is not the physical size of a horse
    ......• does not have the bone proportions of a horse
    ......• does not have the basic posture of a horse
    ......• etc
    Something that - over a period of 55 million years ...
    ...• by changes in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation ...
    ......• in the length of a bone
    ......• in the position of a toe
    ......• in the overall size
    ......• in the overall posture
    ...• and by the division of a 'parent' species (S1) into two (or more) 'daughter' species (S2) ...
    ......• and the division of a 'parent' species (S2) into two (or more) 'daughter' species (S3) ...
    ......• and the division of a 'parent' species (S3) into two (or more) 'daughter' species (S4) ...
    ........ :
    ........ :
    ......• and the division of a 'parent' species (Sn) into two (or more) 'daughter' species (Sn+1) ...
    =================
    ... by these accumulated micro changes ...
    Becomes something that - today, at a macro level ...
    ...• appears to be similar to a horse
    ......• has a single-toe hoof like a horse
    ......• is the physical size of a horse
    ......• has the bone proportions of a horse
    ......• has the basic posture of a horse
    ...• does not appear to be similar to a wolf\dog
    ......• does not have a multi-toe paw like a wolf\dog
    ......• is not the physical size of a wolf\dog
    ......• does not have the bone proportions of a wolf\dog
    ......• does not have the basic posture of a wolf\dog
    Becomes something that - today, at a micro\genetic level ...
    ...• is clearly related to sibling species
    ......• horse (1 wild species)
    ......• ass (3 wild species)
    ......• zebra (3 wild species)
    ......• quaggas (became extinct in historical times)
    ...• that can breed to make (generally) infertile hybrids
    ......• mule
    ......• zorse
    ......• zonkey
    ...• that share traits that clearly came from their common parent species
    ......• size
    ......• posture
    ......• bone proportions
    ......• gait
    ......• diet
    ......• etc
    ...• have traits that are not shared between sibling species
    ......• habitat
    ......• color patterns
    ......• ears
    ......• tails
    ......• voice
    ......• etc
    ......• etc
    ......• etc
    Clearly in the present day forming 7 living out of 8 known daughter species of a common parent species, present day species that are the descendants of this general pattern of evolution, as shown by:
    quote:
    Florida Museum of Natural History - Fossil Horse Gallery:

    (click link to access site, image is mirrored to save bandwidth)

    Where we see the usual "family tree" representation of the fossil record for the evolution of horses, from our eohippus (Hyracotherium) where we started to Mesohippus, to Pliohippus, to Equus, complete with side branches and cousins. Note that the species shown are the "type" species for a whole genus of related (sibling) species, and that the fossil record contains many more species than are shown (Equus includes horses (1 wild species), zebras (3 wild species), asses (3 wild species) and quaggas (and other extinct species, some in N.America) ... at least 8 species known in historical times).
    That's the usual "party line" of evolutionary biology based on the evidence of the fossil record.
    Now, if cognitive dissonance hasn't already disrupted comprehension of the evidence of reality, the final steps are easy:
    Differences vs Similarities
    Step 1:
    We start with the dog skeleton, the eohippus skeleton and a modern horse skeleton, and we start measuring every bone (length, diameter), joint (angle, movement), tooth (size, location, number), everything we can measure about eohippus and find analogous on dog and horse ...
    And catalog the relative similarities\differences:
    ...• bone #1 lengths
    ......• eohippus length = e1
    ......• dog length = d1
    ......• horse length = h1
    ...• bone #1 comparisons(a)
    ......• eohippus to dog, ed1 = max(e1,d1)/ave(e1,d1)
    ......• eohippus to horse, eh1 = max(e1,h1)/ave(e1,h1)
    ...• bone #2 lengths
    ......• etc
    ...• bone #3 lengths
    ...• etc
    notes
    (a) - the trait comparison metric x = max(A,B)/ave(A,B) is thus always1 ≤ x ≤ 2 ,
    where 1 would be identical: max(A,A)/ave(A,A) = (A/A) = 1,
    and 2 would be entirely different: max(A,0)/ave(A,0) = (A/0.5A) = 2
    (b) - from this we can derive an overall "percent difference" measurement:
    "%D" = 100•{average(x1, x2, x3, ... xn) - 1}
    0 ≤ "%D" ≤ 100

    where 0% would be identical and 100% would be entirely different (nothing matches).
    Notice that we have hundreds of bones to compare, plus joint angles, plus proportions of one bone to the next, plus teeth, jaw, skull elements ... and we can easily end up with thousands of metrics to measure and compare. This kind of thing has always been done, though it may have just been rudimentary comparisons of bone types and dimensions with a subjective conclusion. Now, with the aid of computers and digital scanning equipment we can process the data directly and objectively.
    Now we can calculate the "%D" for eohippus to dog and for eohippus to horse, and the lower result will mean that the eohippus is closer in average characteristics to that species.
    For eohippus to dog and horse comparisons, the results will clearly be that eohippus is much closer in average characteristics to dog than to horse.
    Step 2:
    We add another species to the mix: Orohippus
    And catalog the relative similarities\differences:
    ...• bone #1 lengths
    ......• eohippus length = e1
    ......• dog length = d1
    ......• horse length = h1
    ......• orohippus length = o1
    ...• bone #1 comparisons(a)
    ......• eohippus to dog, ed1 = max(e1,d1)/ave(e1,d1)
    ......• eohippus to horse, eh1 = max(e1,h1)/ave(e1,h1)
    ......• eohippus to orohippus, eo1 = max(e1,o1)/ave(e1,o1)
    ...• bone #2 lengths
    ......• etc
    ...• bone #3 lengths
    ...• etc
    Now we can calculate the "%D" for eohippus to dog and for eohippus to horse and for eohippus to orohippus, and the lower result will mean that the eohippus is closer in average characteristics to that species.
    For eohippus to dog, horse and orohippus comparisons,
    (1) the results will clearly be that eohippus is much closer in average characteristics to dog than to horse (as before), and
    (2) the results will clearly be that eohippus is much closer in average characteristics to orohippus than to horse, but
    (3) the results will not be so clear that eohippus is closer in average characteristics to dog than to orohippus, but is likely to be closer to orohippus due to teeth, skull, jaw and toenail characteristics.
    Step 3:
    We switch to orohippus from eohippus and add Mesohippus in place of orohippus and repeat:
    And catalog the relative similarities\differences:
    ...• bone #1 lengths
    ......• orohippus length = o1
    ......• dog length = d1
    ......• horse length = h1
    ......• mesohippus length = m1
    ...• bone #1 comparisons(a)
    ......• orohippus to dog, od1 = max(o1,d1)/ave(o1,d1)
    ......• orohippus to horse, oh1 = max(o1,h1)/ave(o1,h1)
    ......• orohippus to mesohippus, om1 = max(o1,m1)/ave(o1,m1)
    ...• bone #2 lengths
    ......• etc
    ...• bone #3 lengths
    ...• etc
    Now we can calculate the "%D" for orohippus to dog and for orohippus to horse and for orohippus to mesohippus, and the lower result will mean that the orohippus is closer in average characteristics to that species.
    For orohippus to dog, horse and mesohippus comparisons,
    (1) the results will clearly be that orohippus is closer in average characteristics to dog than to horse (but not as close as eohippus was), and
    (2) the results will clearly be that orohippus is much closer in average characteristics to mesohippus than to horse (but closer than eohippus was), and
    (3) the results will not be so clear that orohippus is closer in average characteristics to dog than to mesohippus, but is even more likely to be closer to mesohippus due to teeth, skull, jaw and toenail characteristics than was the case for eohippus to dog and orohippus.
    Steps 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 ...:
    Repeat for Miohippus, Parahippus, Merychippus, Pliohippus, Dinohippus and finally Equus
    Results
    We start with eohippus and compared it to dog and horse skeletons and determine that eohippus is clearly closer in average characteristics to dog than to horse.
    We then compare eohippus to orohippus and find that eohippus is about as different from orohippus as from dog.
    When we move to orohippus and then mesohippus we find that they are closer to each other than to dog and not as different as eohippus was from horse.
    This trend continues till we get to the end, where horse is similar to Equus (all 8 known species).
    In general, the differences between each step in the lineage is less than the difference between eohippus and dog, and this demonstrates that "something" like a dog 55 million years ago can, step by step, by the dual process of
    • changes in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation ...
    plus
    • the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species ...
    ... become something very like a horse ... or any one of the other branches of this lineage ... or it could have stayed an eohippus.
    Of course I expect cognitive dissonance to have taken over before reaching this conclusion, and the responses will either be strong denial of reality, with attempts to change the subject, or an absolute silence from creationists.
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : simplified (honest)
    Edited by RAZD, : ...
    Edited by RAZD, : clarity
    Edited by RAZD, : time for bed
    Edited by RAZD, : revised end comparison metric to be %difference
    Edited by RAZD, : fixed repetiton
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 18 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2008 10:05 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 18 of 331 (447441)
    01-09-2008 10:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
    01-08-2008 10:26 PM


    Re: Is this macro enough?
    If this is not convincing enough we can go further back in time to extend the analysis above (where we started with eohippus\Hyracotheriumabove):
    From Transitional Fossils FAQ by Kathleen Hunt:
    quote:
    Transitional fossils from early eutherians to hoofed animals:
  • Arctocyonid condylarths -- insectivore-like small mammals with classic mammalian teeth and clawed feet.
  • Mesonychid condylarths -- similar to the arctocyonids, but with blunt crushing-type cheek teeth, and flattened nails instead of claws.
  • Late condylarths, e.g. Phenocodus -- a fair-sized animal with hoofs on each toe (all toes were present), a continuous series of crushing-type cheek teeth with herbivore-type cusps, and no collarbone (like modern hoofed animals).
  • Tetraclaeonodon -- a Paleocene condylarth showing perissodactyl-like teeth
  • Hyracotherium -- the famous "dawn horse", an early perissodactyl, with more elongated digits and interlocking ankle bones, and slightly different tooth cusps, compared to to Tetraclaeonodon. A small, doggish animal with an arched back, short neck, and short snout; had 4 toes in front and 3 behind. Omnivore teeth.
  • (Nice list of transitional fossils btw)
    That gives us four (4) more (transitional\intermediate) fossils to work with and even more archaic traits to include in teeth, nails and bones.
    In Message 169 on the "scientific theories taught as factual" thread ICANT complains about the artist rendering of phenacodus on the OP (Message 1):
    That is a lie because no one knows what that animal looked like.
    Even the best renderings are, of course, based on some guesses, as well as on the actual skeleton and known muscle\tendon\etc patterns (to be as accurate as possible), while coloration is based wholly on the artists imagination. They are not intended to deceive but to exemplify, act as an analogy if you will. I chose the rendering shown (from several different ones) that I thought looked most horse-like and plain to minimize this effect.
    We do know what the skeletons look like, and we can compare those skeletons to the skeletons of modern animals and other fossils, we can see the hereditary traits that are common from one to another. This is what the skeleton of phenocodus (Phenacodus resartus)looks like:
    Just for reference, here are the dog and eohippus again:
    Dog Skeleton, by Cheryl R. Dhein, Washington State University
    "dawn horse." Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 16-Dec-07
    Now, are these critters similar or not?
    This is what a horse skeleton looks like:
    (Also see Horse skeleton from the same source as the cat, fox, dog and wolf in the OP.)
    Does that look like any of the critters above?
    Again from Message 1:
    quote:
    So the questions that creationists must answer are:
    (1) If your definition of macroevolution is different from evolutionary biology what is it?
    (2) Why do you think it is a valid definition?
    (3) How much change is necessary?
    (4) Why isn't the difference between cat and fox a valid criteria?
    We still don't have any answers from the creo-crowd. We can easily add to the list:
    (5) or the difference between chimp and human?
    (6) or the difference between dog and horse?
    (7) Are these different "kinds" or not?
    (8) If you use the definition of macroevolution that is used in evolutionary biology does that change evolutionary biology?
    If a tree falls in the forest is it evidence for evolution?
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : format
    Edited by RAZD, : added horse skeleton url
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
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    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by RAZD, posted 01-08-2008 10:26 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 20 of 331 (447456)
    01-09-2008 11:23 AM
    Reply to: Message 19 by ThreeDogs
    01-09-2008 10:29 AM


    Re: Time for a little definition of what macroevolution is.
    Welcome to the fray, ThreeDogs
    ... or would you care to include non-creationists who also object to your views?
    You mean from an agnostic skeptic point of view? Or based on scientific theory\evidence point of view? On way to find out is to ask your questions or state your objections.
    Note that my point of view is based on my personal interpretation of evolution as laid out on Evolution and the BIG LIE, summarized in Message 89 of that thread:
    quote:
    Biological Process #1 is the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation. (See thread message 1 for definitions)
    Biological Process #2 is the division of a 'parent' species into two (or more) 'daughter' species. (See thread message 89 for definitions)
    So if you want to discuss those aspects of my point of view, please reply on that topic, so this one can address macroevolution issues - specifically on what happens after speciation has occurred.
    Is your argument reserved for creationists, strictly ...
    It is designed for creationists to explain the problems they have with "macro"evolution in general and to get some working definition of the amount of change needed to qualify. In that regard it is designed for people that don't have a clear concept of what macroevolution is and think there is something else to the process of evolution than the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation.
    Do you have a process that you want to discuss for macroevolutionary change that occurs after speciation?
    Enjoy


    ps - as you are new, some tips (in case you haven't already figured it out):
    type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
    quotes are easy
    or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
    quote:
    quotes are easy
    also check out (help) links on any formating questions when in the reply window.
    Go to Proposed New Topics to post new topics.
    You can also set that cute smiley as your icon .
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
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    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 19 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 10:29 AM ThreeDogs has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 21 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 2:44 PM RAZD has replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 23 of 331 (447518)
    01-09-2008 4:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by ThreeDogs
    01-09-2008 2:44 PM


    Re: Time for a little identification about the real subject here
    My objections and questions have been stated and you missed them.
    So what are they?
    And, actually, I have addressed your subject and your agenda as well.
    So you are done wasting time and bandwidth on this thread then? Excellent, the rest of us can get back to the topic then, the questions that creationists need to answer:
    (1) If your definition of macroevolution is different from evolutionary biology what is it?
    (2) Why do you think it is a valid definition?
    (3) How much change is necessary?
    (4) Why isn't the difference between cat and fox a valid criteria?
    (5) or the difference between chimp and human?
    (6) or the difference between dog and horse?
    (7) Are these different "kinds" or not?
    (8) If you use the definition of macroevolution that is used in evolutionary biology does that change evolutionary biology?
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : yellow text
    Edited by RAZD, : use peek to see hidden comments.
    Edited by RAZD, : .
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
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    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-09-2008 2:44 PM ThreeDogs has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 24 by ThreeDogs, posted 01-10-2008 9:27 AM RAZD has replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 27 of 331 (447771)
    01-10-2008 6:40 PM
    Reply to: Message 24 by ThreeDogs
    01-10-2008 9:27 AM


    Avoiding the issue does not prove your personal attack is valid
    Your subject is creationists, not dogs or macro-evolution. The latter are also-rans to demonstrate your bias and reiterate in your mind that the former are inferior to you.
    Now you have a choice:
    1. actually deal with the issue of the topic, and either prove your prophesy is right or invalidate your perception in the process,
      or
    2. continue to avoid dealing with the topic -- in which case you can easily fulfill your prophesy in your own mind, whether it is valid or not, declare victory and go do something else.
    Personally I hope you take the first alternative. If you take the second, please don't blame me if I just don't see any need to respond further to anything that does not address the topic.
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : empty victory
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
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    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
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    Message 29 of 331 (448027)
    01-11-2008 6:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 28 by ICANT
    01-11-2008 1:31 PM


    Time to deal with the topic, now that you've had your "fun"
    ... RAZD he is going through a crisis at this point in life. ... RAZD has come face to face with the fact that he is not invincible.
    Do you mean this: cancer survivers?
    Pretty sad way to make an argument. It amazes me the depths some people will sink to in order to avoid discussing the topic.
    Easy on RAZD ...
    Actually I would prefer ThreeDogs would attack the topic with as much as he\she can throw at it, rather than hide behind implications of some hidden agenda.
    I came to that point a few years back and I don't think I have got over it yet, maybe soon.
    Maybe it's a problem with facing reality, something I do not have a problem with, however much you would like to imply otherwise.
    Now that we have reached a nadir in personal attacks, anyone care to try addressing the topic?
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel American Zen Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


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    This message is a reply to:
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    Replies to this message:
     Message 31 by ICANT, posted 01-11-2008 9:09 PM RAZD has replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1520 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    Message 30 of 331 (448029)
    01-11-2008 6:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by ThreeDogs
    01-10-2008 9:44 AM


    Perhaps time for reconsideration.
    If creationists are so inferior, how does he hope they will understand the stuff he talks about. Yet he wants answers from them.
    When you reach two conclusions from the same information that are contradictory, then it is your understanding that is faulty.
    Perhaps the reality is that I fully expect creationists to be able to discuss the topic intelligently. Care to find out?
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    to share.


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    Message 32 of 331 (448090)
    01-11-2008 10:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 31 by ICANT
    01-11-2008 9:09 PM


    Re: Time to deal with the topic, now that you've had your "fun"
    Please take it here to discuss. It is part of that topic and not this one eh?
    Last post by someone else that addressed the topic was Message 13 by Beretta.
    Enjoy.
    Edited by RAZD, : last
    Edited by RAZD, : .

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel American Zen Deist
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    to share.


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