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Author Topic:   Dogs will be Dogs will be ???
Member (Idle past 6059 days)
Posts: 132
From: Washington, DC, US
Joined: 11-20-2007

Message 9 of 331 (440475)
12-13-2007 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Beretta
12-13-2007 10:01 AM

Re: bump for beretta ... or other creationists
Dinosaur to bird perhaps. Assumption that it happened is not the same as evidence. A bird such as archeopteryx has fully-formed wings -how did anything convert from no wings to wings with each step surviving better than the preceding step? Where are all the transitions that show us that this did in fact happen? Why are we missing all those intermediates that help prove the case for wings being coded for in something that had no previous information for wings?
Oh for crying out loud. Look at the damn fossil record and stop getting your information from creationist web sites. Below is a list of some anatomical features that the most birdlike dinosaurs share with primitive birds (it comes from the University of California at Berkeley Museum website):
1. Pubis (one of the three bones making up the vertebrate pelvis) shifted from an anterior to a more posterior orientation (see Saurischia), and bearing a small distal "boot".
2. Elongated arms and forelimbs and clawed manus (hands).
3. Large orbits (eye openings in the skull).
4. Flexible wrist with a semi-lunate carpal (wrist bone).
5. Hollow, thin-walled bones.
6. 3-fingered opposable grasping manus (hand), 4-toed pes (foot); but supported by 3 main toes.
7. Reduced, posteriorly stiffened tail.
8. Elongated metatarsals (bones of the feet between the ankle and toes).
9. S-shaped curved neck.
10. Erect, digitgrade (ankle held well off the ground) stance with feet postitioned directly below the body.
11. Similar eggshell microstructure.
12. Teeth with a constriction between the root and the crown.
13. Functional basis for wing power stroke present in arms and pectoral girdle (during motion, the arms were swung down and forward, then up and backwards, describing a "figure-eight" when viewed laterally).
14. Expanded pneumatic sinuses in the skull.
15. Five or more vertebrae incorporated into the sacrum (hip).
16. Straplike scapula (shoulder blade).
17. Clavicles (collarbone) fused to form a furcula (wishbone).
18. Hingelike ankle joint, with movement mostly restricted to the fore-aft plane.
19. Secondary bony palate (nostrils open posteriorly in throat).
20. Feathers (I edited this because it was out of date...the jury is now in on this one)
These features didn't just pop into bird-like dinosaurs from no-where. We watch the development of these characters across the fossil record, some starting within dinosaurs and some starting before. Is the record imperfect...sure, but for a good number of the points above we have a very clear detailed series that illustrates the development. And there are other points not relevant to the above list but that exist within the fossil record and are relevant to bird evolution, like the reduction of the hand from three functional fingers down into one (we see this happen in dinosaurs--yes in a series of species with increasingly reduced hands). Not only that, but we have dinosaurs with non-functional wings. This continued repetition of false statements like "we're missing all these transitions from no-wings to wings" is akin to saying "all sediments were laid down in water." They're just plain false statements. They're as accurate as saying the American Civil War never happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Beretta, posted 12-13-2007 10:01 AM Beretta has not replied

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