The Nature of Mutations

Phospho,

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1. The definition of mutation that the general scientific community adheres to who deals with mutations on a daily basis, which excludes the vast majority of scientists, is exactly the definitions you and the other evolutionists have stated that they are, but this is wrong. Point, it doesn't matter how many scientists hold to a theory, or even a definition, if it is wrong, then they are wrong. And the vast majority of evolutionary scientists define mutations in the evolutionary sense because that is what they were told the definition meant...not really any fault of their own.

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There have been plenty of scientists proposing theories that were held to for generations, even though they were wrong, and not proven wrong for a very long time due to technological advancement. Yet those scientists who held to those theories, I am willing to bet, held on to them because of some personal bias...NOT because of the known facts. Such is the case with evolutionary theory today, I am willing to bet.

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Absolute poppycock! A mutation is a change in any specific DNA sequence, usually by replication error (but not necessarily) that may give rise to a new haplotype, karyotype, allele, etc. What is so biased about that for chrissakes? Please tell me how all those scientists are wrong to adhere to a similar definition of mutation?!?!You're showing your creationist paranoia. The word "mutation", as far as genetics goes is a descriptive tool to describe multiple potential events at the genetic level, it is quite right that these events should have a relevant descriptor.Good grief.

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So now I leave you with this question...or perhaps I should abandone this thread and begin a new topic? I leave this up to your decision. Has genetic change, no matter what you call it, been observed and demonstrated in a scientific manner - excluding opinions made in "matter-of-fact" statements - to build up phenotypic characters where before there were no genetic instructions for them?

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Yes. Hall 1982. He knocked out the lac operon (actually only the enzyme, it matters little as a whole new system had to be rebuilt) in a E.Coli. Not only did a new enzyme that cleaved lactose evolve, but a new expression control system, & a relevant protease to facilitate the transport of the sugar into the cell. Complex function evolved in the lab.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.[This message has been edited by mark24, 05-21-2003]

Percy,Is recombination mutation? I would say so. Not trying to make a point here, but it seems in the broadest sense, that genetic material is being altered, that recombination is mutation too.Mark

maverick,

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recombination doesnot result in altered function of the gene it merely reshuffles the genes around

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Well, it can if the genes are chopped up during recombination, but that really is missing the point. Do chiasma always occur between genes, rather than amongst them? If expressed genetic material is altered during recombination, this is a mutation, surely. Your sperm may contain a geno/pheno type not seen in any human ever-ever-ever, due to recombination, yet it is not a mutation? This is inconsistent with all genetic definitions I've read or understood.

Regardless, a genes function does not have to be altered for a mutation to have occurred, hence the term, "neutral mutation".

Mark

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Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 05-25-2003][This message has been edited by mark24, 05-25-2003]

Percy,How about; mutation is a change in genetic material that is passed on from one cell to another via mitosis, meiosis, or recombination?This covers both point mutations, chromosomal, & everything inbetween, germ line & somatic?Mark

>Percy,But if you want a broad & simple a definition as possible, you'll need to include somatic mutations in the same definition, which of course, are not heritable. In fact, I'd drop the "via mitosis, meiosis, or recombination" from the definition, it's unnecessary.

Mutation is a change in genetic material that is passed on from one cell to another.

Mark

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Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

Wounded,You're right, how about:

Mutation is a change of genetic material?

Perhaps this too broad, since it allows human tinkering with the genetic material of a cell to come under the umbrella of "mutation" too.

Mark

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Occam's razor is not for shaving with.