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Author Topic:   Is Abiogenesis a fact?
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 1 of 303 (273647)
12-28-2005 7:03 PM


Hi everyone, this is my first shot at a new topic.... so don't be too harsh on me!
My question is can we consider Abiogenesis a fact?
Evolution is both a fact and a theory.
Fact - Living things change over time
The theory of evolution is our attempt to explain the process behing this.
So can we say:
Fact - There used to be no life on earth. There is now life on earth. Therefore life arose from non-life.
The theory of abiogenesis is how we attempt to explain the process.
I am not asking if the theory of abiogenesis is true, only whether we can consider it a fact that abiogenesis happened (although we could certainly discuss abiogenesis).
Also note, even if we consider it a fact that abiogenesis happened it does not preclude a god or god(s) causing it to happpen.
So can we consider abiogensis a factual occurence based on available evidence?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-28-2005 7:24 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied
 Message 7 by Modulous, posted 12-29-2005 3:03 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
 Message 11 by LinearAq, posted 12-29-2005 2:45 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied
 Message 27 by alphablu82, posted 01-11-2006 11:42 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
 Message 53 by Brad McFall, posted 05-03-2006 7:21 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
 Message 152 by randman, posted 06-07-2006 12:40 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
 Message 196 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-11-2006 11:19 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied
 Message 236 by NOT JULIUS, posted 12-07-2006 3:24 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 4 of 303 (273660)
12-28-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Minnemooseus
12-28-2005 7:24 PM


Re: Theory of Abiogenesis vs. Hypothesis of Abiogenesis
I think I can accept your "fact" of abiogenesis, if you would include the possibility of life having come from outer space as being one of the possible processes of abiogenesis.
Fact of Abiogenesis - Life did have an initial occurance on Earth"
Good point there. I hadn't even considered an extraterrestrial source. I guess that is certainly a possibility (reminds of one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek - TNG).....
I guess the fact of abiogenesis would state.
First part - "There was originally no life on earth" - In other words if you go back in time far enough at some point there is no life on earth. For example, let's say there is no life on earth for the frist 2 billion years (just an example, not a claim).
Second part - "There is life on earth now"... Basically at some point in earth's history life appeared and there had never been terrestrial life before that.
We may never have a theory of abiogenesis... who knows. (personally, I think our best bet would be to get really lucky and discover another earth like planet very early in it's development cycle).
However, if we are even going to try and figure out how life arose I think it's very important that we have evidence that there was once no life on earth and there is now.
Question: Do we have enough evidence to know that there was origninally no life on earth. in other words Start condition = no life.

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 Message 3 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-28-2005 7:24 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 10 of 303 (273864)
12-29-2005 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
12-29-2005 7:47 AM


Re: Theory of Abiogenesis vs. Hypothesis of Abiogenesis
Thanks everyone, I figured that what you all replied was the case, but it's always interesting to hear other points of view.
I think maybe I chose the wrong word (abiogenesis).
What I was getting at, is if it was safe to assume that start condition earth = no life. (of course current condition earth = life)...
Even though this may seem obvious to all of us... It seems important to me at least, that we are fairly sure this is a valid assumption (of course the alternative would be that life has always existed on earth, which I would agree seems impossible).

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 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 12-29-2005 7:47 AM RAZD has not replied

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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 13 of 303 (273872)
12-29-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by LinearAq
12-29-2005 2:45 PM


Re: Definitions would help
From these definitions, I would say that you are asking about life from non-life rather than if the Martians left their DNA while copulating in the ocean before they left for another galaxy.
There are a number of experiments going on concerning this subject. Despite some promising results, I don't think that the scientific community at large is stating that abiogenesis is a fact.
I'm not referring to any hypothesis about how life arose from non-life.
I am simply saying that originally there was no life on earth and now there is. How this arose is entirely another question. Could abiogensis, xenogenesis even theogenesis.
Look at evolution. There is the fact of evolution and the theory.
FACT - evolution occurs i.e. living things change over time
The theory is our explanation of this process.
same type of thing here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by LinearAq, posted 12-29-2005 2:45 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5863 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 34 of 303 (296937)
03-20-2006 8:23 PM


You dug it up!
Did whoever dug this thread up not read the thread?
LinearAg summed it up nicely:
The problem was that the OP addressed abiogenesis and if it was considered a fact. I apparantly mistook that to mean "chemical interactions that eventually produced self-replicating conglomerations of chemicals that could be classified as living."
Mini_Ditka corrected me by saying he was not interested in the manner in which life became. From my point of view this leaves the OP with the much easier question of: Is it considered a fact that there was once no life and later there was life.
That's all I wanted to discuss. This isn't about atheism vs religion or anything. This topic has nothing to do with whether or not god or god(s) created life

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-14-2006 4:01 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
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