The Whole Jesus Thing

Legend,

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so, when you said you can 'see it', what you really meant was 'you can imagine it', or 'you can wish it was there'.

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I didn't say that I couldn't see it, I can see it quite plainly, I think that maybe you misunderstood what I posted...Which was....

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If you honestly can't see where it fortells of it, then that is fine with me. I see it, and so do millions of others.

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Angel

Hi Yaro,

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It still dosn't make sense to me tho. One of the strict rules you were supposed to follow for example was sacrifice of animals etc. Why on earth would God want a dead lamb?

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Sacrifices have been made since the time Adam and Eve sinned, as a physical reminder that the consequence of sin is death. God made the first sacrifice to cover their nakednesss. The laws regarding sacrifices were added to the old covenant with Israel because of transgressions. Man perverted the use of sacrifices

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..for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

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Which is why God gave this commandment

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Deut. 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: you shall not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

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God said that He did not desire sacrifice and offering, and He did not require burnt offering and sin offering.

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Isa. 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?

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Jer 7:22-23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;...I spoke not unto your fathers nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them saying, Obey my voice and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

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We do not please God by physically sacrificing animals, it is an act of belief and obedience. In other words it is not the scent that God desires, but the devotion of His children.

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Angel

Flying Hawk,What?I said:

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Good point, but aren't the two the same? I make a sacrifice of myself for my children (figuratively speaking), God made a sacrifice for His children

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You asked:

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How do you make a sacrifice of yourself for your children?

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Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

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Main Entry: figurative
Pronunciation: 'fi-g(y)&-r&-tiv
Function: adjective
1 a : representing by a figure or resemblance : EMBLEMATIC b : of or relating to representation of form or figure in art
2 a : expressing one thing in terms normally denoting another with which it may be regarded as analogous : METAPHORICAL b : characterized by figures of speech
- figuratively adverb
- figurativeness noun

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Angel

contracycle,

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Then you cannot really be true to your faith - becuase if you were, you would know that those worshippers of false goods are either badly mistaken or seduced by Satan, and furthermore that they are inducting their children into these "false" religions.

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O, I see, In other words, you are never wrong, which would make you perfect. I should judge people to be true in my faith.I have to say that I completely disagree with you! Why? Let's see, let me open my bible....Just teasing, but it's true.

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It is not adequate to hold a position and be unable to justify why this position is correct.

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You mean like God? He can't be explained, where did He come from, what are His thoughts? You see, again you are wrong, because I believe with all of my heart and soul that He is, even though there are no words to describe how He is.

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I do acknowledge your different point of view, but I do not have to take your point of view seriously if you yourself cannot justify the position you yourself hold.

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Ok, yet again a hypocritical statement, so what you are saying is this, if you happen to believe in God that is, Atheist are right, since you can't make your position valid to them, that makes you wrong, and them right since you can't justify your position. Now is that true?

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Angel

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I didn't say that I couldn't see it, I can see it quite plainly, I think that maybe you misunderstood what I posted

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No, I didn't misunderstand and I never claimed you said you couldn't see it.You say you 'see it'. We're both looking at the same passages and you claim they foretell of human sacrifice. For the same reasons that purpledawn outlined in Message 133, I can't 'see' this. There are two explanantions for this :1) I've got reading difficulties.
2) You don't actually 'see it', but you 'imagine' it or 'wish' it.As my reading ability is more than ok (as testified to by all my previous posts), I have to conclude that it is reason no.2.If you disagree, you can point out where in those passages, it foretells of human sacrifice. Otherwise, there is no reason to accept that it does, other than wishful thinking.

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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If you disagree, you can point out where in those passages, it foretells of human sacrifice. Otherwise, there is no reason to accept that it does, other than wishful thinking.

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Gladly

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Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

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This tells of Jesus being beat while taken to the cross....

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Isaiah 52:13-15 See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.....

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This tells that Jesus will be sacrificed, and rise again.....

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Isaiah 52:14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him; his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness-

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This tells how they loathed Jesus, and beat him.....

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Isaiah 52:15 so will he sprinkle many nations, and kings will shut their mouths because of him. For what they were not told, they will see, and what they have not heard, they will understand.

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This tells us that He proved to them He was so, so they had nothing to say, and that they would understand after His sacrifice, that He was teaching God's will.....

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Isaiah 53 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

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This is self exclamatory, but for arguments sake, I will break it down for you.

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Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

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Jesus is in apperance like any other man....

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He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

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Most people hated Him and what He stood for.......

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Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

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They hated Him, and did not believe Him....

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Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

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When he died (was sacrificed!) He took away our sin, yet they still hated Him, and didn't believe.

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But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

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Again, He was sacrificed for us, pierced=cross....I will continue this if you wish, but I see no point, as I said before, it is there, it doesn't come right out and say the words....BUT IF YOU LOOK IT IS THERE...

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Angel

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O, I see, In other words, you are never wrong, which would make you perfect. I should judge people to be true in my faith.

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None of that arises from my question. I have made no claims to infallibility, not least because I have no pretensions to divinity.

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You mean like God? He can't be explained, where did He come from, what are His thoughts? You see, again you are wrong, because I believe with all of my heart and soul that He is, even though there are no words to describe how He is.

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Who? Is that the dude who comes along and replaces kids teeth under their pillows with quarters, or the dude in the red and yellow leathers who smote vampires?The fact that you believe something is fundamentally unimportant. It dosn't matter. The universe is utterly oblivious to your petty human conceits. YOUR BELIEF is not in question, the BASIS of your belief is in question - and you openly admit that you cannot justify it. Therefore, it's rubbish.

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Ok, yet again a hypocritical statement, so what you are saying is this, if you happen to believe in God that is, Atheist are right, since you can't make your position valid to them, that makes you wrong, and them right since you can't justify your position. Now is that true?

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It is certainly true as far as social policy is concerned, and it is certainly true where analysis of the real physical world is concerned. The specific position on god is besides the point, because 99% of modern theists recognise the validity of fact-checking and methodical analysis. Most theists check both ways before crossing roads rather than relying on gods guardianship, for example. And it is only in the special exception of the nature of god that theists abandon this rationalist mindset and go about asserting nonsense which they cannot even explain satisfactorily to themselves.And therefore I ask: if self-confessed theists cannot advance a cogent argument for their theism, why should they or their argument be taken seriously? I can and will preference arguments that are rational, contain evidence, and discuss really existing features of the world over argumnts that deliberately avoid such.

I made my points in Message 133. You did not address those points. This type of reply does not backup your assertion. I understand that what you say is what you believe, but you should be able to show the basis of your belief so that others can see the point.I see in Message 186 that you have addressed what you believe to be said in the verses you provided.Now you need to address the points I made in Message 133.If the verse reads in past tense, why do you see a future revelation?Why do you see sacrifice in Isaiah 52:13 when none is mentioned?Where I read appalled you read loathing.I haven't read anywhere that Jesus was marred beyond human likeness, and yet you feel that the verse describes Jesus.You state that most people hated Jesus and what he stood for and yet the Gospels mention large crowds that sought his teaching. Jesus had no offspring mentioned in the NT.Where does the first part of chapter 52 fit into the future?

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A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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YOUR BELIEF is not in question, the BASIS of your belief is in question - and you openly admit that you cannot justify it. Therefore, it's rubbish.

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Aaaaa, but I did address and justify it, if it isn't understood, then it no longer becomes my problem. I took the time to answer, simply because it isn't understood by you, but makes perfectly good sense to me and countless others, you come up with this? Please....You sound intelligent, can't you come up with something better than that?

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It is certainly true as far as social policy is concerned, and it is certainly true where analysis of the real physical world is concerned.

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Really, so it is double standard? Can you prove that God doesn't exist? If not then by your standards alone, the belief (or non-belief) of an atheist would also be 'rubbish'.

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Angel

Then what do you make of these verses?This may have some cross-over with the "What's to be taken litteraly", but I remember you mentioning that you belive God has a phisical apearance. He has a nose, eyes, body, etc.I can only interpret this verse to mean that god indeed enjoyd the smell of the burning flesh.As far as human sacrifice, Moses conducted a massive human sacrifce to the Lord at His bidding.Here is a verse where Moses is divying up the loot amongst his followers and god. (BTW, this is a very bloody raid in teh book of Numbers where mosess kills hundreds of people, forces young girls into marrige, and others into slavery) 32 people sacrificed to god.There it is folks, mentiond along with the beasts, the gold, etc. all offerd to god after he sanctiond the bloody raid.What is your take on these sacrifices?

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Aaaaa, but I did address and justify it, if it isn't understood, then it no longer becomes my problem.

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Identification of moral fault. Having established blame, the respondant feels justified in evading the point. This demonstrates yet again that religion uses morality for socially manipulative purposes, as a stalking horse to conceal its ignorance and lies.

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Really, so it is double standard? Can you prove that God doesn't exist? If not then by your standards alone, the belief (or non-belief) of an atheist would also be 'rubbish'.

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I do not need to disprove god, becuase I am not the one claiming god exists. I cannot prove a negative. What I can say, however, is that there is no reason anywhere to believe in god any more than there is to believe in the tooth fairy. After all, the information we have about the tooth fairy is identical to that for god - rumour.Seeing as you will not or can not advance the slightest argument in support of your claims, I can legitimately dismiss them. Seeing as I can and will advance arguments in support of my claims, you cannot legitimately dismiss them. My claims are methodologically superior to yours, quite regardless of what either of us believe.

purple dawn,

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I made my points in Message 133. You did not address those points.

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What exactly is your question in post 133? You seem to think that I think you are absolutely wrong, and I don't, just because I see it in a different light, makes no mention that I am stating you are wrong.

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This type of reply does not backup your assertion. I understand that what you say is what you believe, but you should be able to show the basis of your belief so that others can see the point.

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I see in Message 186 that you have addressed what you believe to be said in the verses you provided.

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Ok, so what's the question here, I don't want you to think that I am avoiding you.

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Now you need to address the points I made in Message 133.

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Now, that is where you happen to be wrong, I do not need to address them because that is the way you feel about them, and no one can tell you that you are wrong, when it comes to your beliefs. But if you would like my opinion I will share it. So long as you don't get offensive, and continue to ask me over and over again why I FEEL the way that I do. A feeling is a belief, you can't change that. I am assuming that a discussion is for everyone to place their oppinions, just as I don't expect you to take what I say, and live by it, I hope that you don't expect me to take what you say as the 'truth' and live by it.*Isaiah is speaking of the future, not the past tense.
*Anything marred in spirit (faith) is not suitable for sacrifice.
*Psalms are an important part of the Bible
*I never said there wasn't anything else going on that day, it doesn't change my point.Now again, I responded to your post 133, as well as you responded to it. Short, and sweet.

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If the verse reads in past tense, why do you see a future revelation?

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Instead of explaining that, I will just give an example: If I were to say this today "You need to get that finished by tommorrow" That would be future...tommorrow. Even though finished is a word used for past tense.

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Why do you see sacrifice in Isaiah 52:13 when none is mentioned?

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It was an introduction to the following verse, I did not quote it alone.

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Where I read appalled you read loathing.

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ok?

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I haven't read anywhere that Jesus was marred beyond human likeness, and yet you feel that the verse describes Jesus.

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Well, again maybe we read the same scripture and get a different meaning, it explains it in the NT, but I will not go further into that right now, this has already went way off my original response, so I will just leave it as two people who simply disagree, for now.

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You state that most people hated Jesus and what he stood for and yet the Gospels mention large crowds that sought his teaching.

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Ok, now I think you are just looking for an argument, please...if you were in a mall, and it was crowded, would that not be a crowd? Now compare that to the people on the streets of NYC, and you get a much larger crowd, most people does not mean, that there was not a crowd that followed him.

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Jesus had no offspring mentioned in the NT.

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So, what is your point? That Jesus had no children? In a sense we (Christians) are all His children. It is through Him, that we have life. (Spiritually)

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Where does the first part of chapter 52 fit into the future?

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I do not recall saying that, was it you that said it?

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Angel

Contracycle,You are intitled to your oppinions, whatever they may be. Have a good day, but avoidance of questions, with intelectual words, makes your points no more valid than anyone elses.
Have a good day

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Angel

Yaro,I didn't say that He didn't like the scent of burnt offerings, I said that He did not require burnt offering and sin offering. He does not desire sacrifice and offering, simply means that He didn't desire it, He didn't yearn for it. It wasn't an unpleasent scent, actually I agree I think that He likes the scent, most of us do. I am trying to say that it wasn't that He didn't like it, but it would not affect Him if He never smelt it again. It wasn't the actual animal itself that satisfied God, but the act, or devotion to Him by His people.

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Angel

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