GENESIS 22:17 / NOT A PROMISE GIVEN TO THE JEWS

Probably the most cited alleged failed Bible prophecy is the promise of Genesis 22:17 and 26:4Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.Genesis 26:4
And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessedIn these passages, God is speaking to Abraham, and He promises that Abraham's descendants will numerically become so vast as to only be compared to the stars of heaven/sand on the seashore.Everywhere I go on the Net I run into some site that says these promises/prophecies failed because the Jews are anything but a people populated as such.This is absolutely true. The Jews are a tiny worldwide minority. Is the Bible and its God a failure to keep His promise to Abraham ?What is a Jew ?ALL JEWS ARE HEBREWS BUT NOT ALL HEBREWS ARE JEWSThe word "Jews" does not appear in the Bible until 2Kings 16:6 and 2Chronicles 32:18.(KJV)The word is used to describe persons that make up and populate the Southern kingdom of Judah which consisted of two tribes from Israel - Judah and Benjamin. Hence, Judah/Jews.1Kings 11:29-35

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29Now it happened at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite met him on the way; and he had clothed himself with a new garment, and the two were alone in the field. 30Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. 31And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32(but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), 33because they have[1] forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. 34However I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, because I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of My servant David, whom I chose because he kept My commandments and My statutes. 35But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand and give it to you--ten tribes.God, in these verses DIVIDES Israel into TWO distinct kingdoms.God gives Jeroboam the right to rule 10 tribes and Rehoboam (Solomon's son) gets his kingdom reduced to 2 tribes (Judah and Benjamin).Now from this point on in scripture there are TWO Hebrew nations/kingdoms. The Northern kingdom (capitol of Samaria) is called House of Israel and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of First and Second Kings. The Southern kingdom (capitol of Jerusalem) is called Judah and its historical perspective is recorded in the books of First and Second Chronicles. ONLY after this split are the people of Judah called "Jews".Now in Genesis 48 Jacob is going to distribute the birthright. This means the promises given to Abraham by God will flow through whomever Jacob blesses.The law of primogeniture says the firstborn gets the birthright UNLESS God changes it.Genesis 49:3,4

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3"Reuben, you are my firstborn,
My might and the beginning of my strength,
The excellency of dignity and the excellency of power.
4Unstable as water, you shall not excel,
Because you went up to your father's bed;
Then you defiled it--
He went up to my couch.Jacob's firstborn; Reuben committed a sexual sin and God stripped him of the birthright. This means the birthright now goes to whoever God (through Jacob) says it will go.Genesis 48:8-22

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8Then Israel saw Joseph's sons, and said, "Who are these?"
9Joseph said to his father, "They are my sons, whom God has given me in this place."
And he said, "Please bring them to me, and I will bless them." 10Now the eyes of Israel were dim with age, so that he could not see. Then Joseph brought them near him, and he kissed them and embraced them. 11And Israel said to Joseph, "I had not thought to see your face; but in fact, God has also shown me your offspring!"
12So Joseph brought them from beside his knees, and he bowed down with his face to the earth. 13And Joseph took them both, Ephraim with his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh with his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near him. 14Then Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand on Manasseh's head, guiding his hands knowingly, for Manasseh was the firstborn. 15And he blessed Joseph, and said:

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"God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked,
The God who has fed me all my life long to this day,
16The Angel who has redeemed me from all evil,
Bless the lads;
Let my name be named upon them,
And the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac;
And let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the
earth."

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17Now when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it displeased him; so he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head. 18And Joseph said to his father, "Not so, my father, for this one is the firstborn; put your right hand on his head."
19But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his descendants shall become a multitude of nations."
20So he blessed them that day, saying, "By you Israel will bless, saying, "May God make you as Ephraim and as Manasseh!"' And thus he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
21Then Israel said to Joseph, "Behold, I am dying, but God will be with you and bring you back to the land of your fathers. 22Moreover I have given to you one portion above your brothers, which I took from the hand of the Amorite with my sword and my bow."The birthright has now been given to the TWO sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh.BUT in Genesis 49:10 God removes TWO specific components of the birthright and gives it to Judah.Genesis 49:10

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The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.Judah receives the right to rule (scepter) and the right to make the laws (lawgiver), EVERYTHING else went to the two sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh, which includes ALL the promises given to Abraham.GENESIS CHAPTER 38Why is this chapter in the Bible ?Its a lurid tale of reality. (this chapter is excellent proof that God controlled the content of scripture, if man did this story would of never made it in) The point of this chapter is to identify to whom Judah's birthright would flow through. Twins are born and the red string around Zerah's hand makes him the firstborn even though he came out second. But Pharez actually comes out first. What this means is that BOTH of them are firstborn and the promises of the right to rule and make the laws will flow through both of them. This is the eternal word of God and the point of this chapter is to establish the facts of the birthright to both of Judah's sons.RECAPAll the promises given to Abraham - Jacob gave to Ephraim and Manasseh EXCEPT the right to rule/make the laws was given to Judah and his two sons Zerah and Pharez.Judah and his descendants, the Southern kingdom of Judah - the Jews were never given or promised to be "as the stars of heaven and the sand of the sea". This massive population group was promised to Ephraim and Manasseh who were part of the Northern kingdom - the House of Israel.In 1kings 11 the kingdom was divided into two nations. When God got fed up with the Northern kingdoms idol worship he allowed Assyria to carry them away into servitude never to return to Palestine. Israel was divorced by God and eventually dispersed across Europe, Scandinavia, and Britain. God did not divorce Judah for her sins but allowed and enabled them to return from exile. Those who returned rebuilt the wall and the Temple (Ezra/Nehemiah era) and those Jews eventually became the sect of the Pharisees (children of Pharez) in Jesus day.HOSEA CHAPTER 1Hosea prophesied to the House of Israel/Northern kingdom.2 When the LORD began to speak by Hosea, the LORD said to Hosea:

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"Go, take yourself a wife of harlotry
And children of harlotry,
For the land has committed great harlotry
By departing from the LORD." God is going to use Hosea by making him marry a whore in order to depict His pain to see Israel commit idol worship. Then Hosea's wife is going to bare three children whose names God will choose to proclaim a prophetic message.6And she conceived again and bore a daughter. Then God said to him:

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"Call her name Lo-Ruhamah,[1]
For I will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel,
But I will utterly take them away.[2]
7Yet I will have mercy on the house of Judah,
Will save them by the LORD their GodThe name "Lo-Ruhamah" means "not having mercy" on the House of Israel.8Now when she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9Then God said:

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"Call his name Lo-Ammi,
For you are not My people,
And I will not be your God.The next child is named "Lo-Ammi" and it means "not my people" (Israel) God is divorcing and disowning Israel.10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel
Shall be as the sand of the sea,
Which cannot be measured or numbered.
And it shall come to pass
In the place where it was said to them,
"You are not My people,'[4]
There it shall be said to them,
"You are sons of the living God.'What this means is that in the place that Israel is scattered and dispersed to, they will be forsaken and not look like God's people, they will be in a state of not having mercy THEN in this state they will suddenly become "sons of the living God" AND they will be as numerous as the "sand of the sea which cannot be numbered".This prophecy clearly identifies Israel and NOT Judah/Jews to be the recipient of Abraham's promises.When Israel broke free of Assyrian captivity they fanned out across Europe and landed in Britain eventually. They are not Jews, but Hebrews who have lost their Palestinian Hebrew identity, yet they certainly retained many of their ancestral customs and ways. Yet in this state of being "lost" and "not having mercy" they became known as sons of the living God: Christians.Jesus said to take the gospel FIRST to the House of Israel.Matthew 10:6

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These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.The apostles did just that. The gospel went first to these forsaken/not having mercy/dispersed 10 tribes. Then in this state of being forsaken and not having mercy they became "sons of the living God"/christians. (Hosea 1) God divorced Israel UNTIL He sent His Son to fulfill the law and kill (crucify) the law. Mosaic law said a man cannot marry another until the first wife died. That "first wife" died on the cross (Law Incarnate) in order for God now to be able to seek out lost Israel and have her restored to Him via the power of the Gospel!God kept His word to Abraham.The point is that if God will keep His word to the likes of sinning Abraham, then how much more will He keep His word to us based on the blood of His Son.[all scripture quotations from the NewKJV][source of theology/history Dr. Gene Scott]This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-07-2004 08:52 PM

One of the few rare topics that has gone unchallenged.Testimony to the scholarship of Dr. Scott.

No shit.

Hi Loudmouth: As a "sand of the sea/stars of the heaven" population scale: No.Are the asiatic peoples and peoples of India a massive population: Absolutely yes. Some/few.There are ONLY so many massive population groups: Asiatic, Slavic, Chinese, African, and of course Celtic.Which of these are most likely to consist of birthright descendants ?This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 05:51 PM

Missed this originally.You would have to be more specific.Generalizing like this leads to error.

Your sudden departure from civility without provocation can only be attributed to the truth the OP and your "refutation" of racism slander.You are ranting and defeated.Whats wrong with you ?

6 words does not refute the OP.If it is what you assert then produce an intelligent refutation according to your known abilities and lets debate. The OP ended with Jesus telling His disciples to take the gospel FIRST to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.This means whoever are the first hearers of the gospel are the lost sheep.The OP ends by saying the multitudes forsaken by God in Hosea 1 are the lost sheep. THESE people became the first christians "sons of the living God"/Hosea 1.In response, you leap from the First Century and arbitrarily invoke a racist cult refutation of British Israelism.Just because some nut (Richard Brothers) claimed origin to Davidic lineage secular historians have succeeded in covering the voluminous truth that the 10 tribes broke free from captivity and there descendants ended up becoming the Celtic nations of Europe.You then cite the error of Dr. Armstrong and his racial identity teaching to somehow refute 1900 years of history.If you did it innocently then I believe it.The subject has nothing to do with racism or cults but the truth of history as to where the 10 tribes ended up and God keeping His promise to Abraham.WT.

Hi Loudmouth: This is a massive question you ask.Dr. Scott has spent his whole life answering it.The intent of the OP is not to open this can.The OP ended in the First Century for this very purpose.If you really want to know then go to Dr. Scott's website and listen to any of the "Lost Tribes" teachings/picture and sound.Or you can go here for an overview:http://www.prepare-ye-the-way.com/celts01.htmThe point is that the 10 tribes, who finally broke free of Assyrian captivity, did not go back to Palestine. They fanned out across Eurasia. This large exodus of Shemites evolved into the Celtic nations. To think these people just evaporated as lame ass traditional history asserts defies intelligence. The evidence disproves this assumption. Absolutely.Hosea says they will NOT look like God's people.They will look "forsaken"They will look "as not having mercy"THEN in this state, Hosea (speaking for God) says "they will become sons of the living God"Christians are known as "sons of God".All of Paul's missionary journeys - wherever he went - these people were the persons of Hosea 1.The heraldry symbols of Great Britain alone is excellent evidence.While I have you:Your knowledge in science is far superior to mine.I could never win a debate with you even with a cross subject including the Bible.Please allow me to decline without harm ?sincerely,WT.This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-05-2004 04:31 PM

Hi Loudmouth: The OP establishes that the Jews are persons belonging to the two-tribe Southern Kingdom of Judah.The OP establishes that Judah WAS NOT the recipient of the Genesis 22 promise.Do you understand and agree to this ?If you do then this means the 10 ten tribe Northern Kingdom, also known as House of Israel IS NOT COMPRISED OF JEWS.It was this kingdom which was carried away by the Assyrians.This means when these peoples escaped Assyria THEY WERE NOT JEWS NOR DID THEY LOOK LIKE JEWS.The tribe of Dan eventually clustered in the region we now call Denmark.Denmark/DANmark.Dan's descendants were also thinking of their patriarchal father when naming New Troy - LonDAN/London.The Iberia peninsula.Ibeer/Hebeer/Hebrew."Dan" means "judge" and the Danes certainly pride themselves as the worlds arbiters.I have to suddenly go off line.....to be continued.....

You have zero knowledge about my claims but you have no problem about making conclusions.I gave tidbits of DIRECT evidence and you clown them with your silly made-up renditions.I supplied no argument - just known facts that are so obviously true you just assert they are not.ALL of my claims are proven facts. Source: Dr. Gene Scott.How often do I intrude into science topics and act the same way you are acting here ? You cannot have it both ways.Either challenge the veracity of the Biblical renderings in the OP OR accept them as facts.I prefer to debate the content of the OP BEFORE we go into history after the OP ends.Archaeology does support my claims AND it is only a component. Secular historians have deliberately mislead the world BECAUSE they do not want the world to know how God has kept His word to Abraham.This is also proof of Satan controlling the world just as the Bible claims.

This is an angry rant/attack on the messenger/arguing the man BECAUSE you do not like the claims/evidence/conclusions.What is your obsession against a teacher ?Are you self-taught ?You are really advocating "independance".Independance = losers.Every accomplished person comes from some school of thought/learning.Paul the Apostle was raised at the feet of Gemaliel - the brightest Jewish scholar of his day.I have been raised at the feet of Dr. Scott because he is the brightest scholar of our day - period.Don't agree ?So what.Prove his research wrong or the personal insults against him amount to an admission that you can't - thats why you argue the man.I have no desire to pass N.T. geographical test in your eyes.Wherever Paul went first = House of Israel descendants.Don't believe it then refute Dr. Scott and his 80,000 volume library just on church history.I am not on trial with your condescending attitude of superiority. The inferior doesn't question the superior. You ask - respectfully or you are just looking to assert ignorance and waste my time.I have given you the respect your knowledge deserves - want me to cut and paste that excerpt ?In turn, this topic has you suddenly departing normal parameters of civility. I am fresh out of a topic where all my opponents got a free ride from the evidenciary rules of source cite - a topic where I voluntarily refrained from using Dr. Scott only because he is an oral source and not written. I argued with one hand tied behind my back and still demolished my opponents with pure evidence.My source for this topic IS ALL Dr. Scott and his research, which consists of sources of already published books - books which "mainstream" historians completely ignore BECAUSE it proves the Bible.IF you want to debate then I have been known to debate the Bible.But get this superior condescending attitude out of your posts or I will just interpret it to mean the evidence has you infuriated and flame-war is your only intent of which I want no part of.This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-06-2004 04:03 PM

You obviously didn't really read my previous post.Those word origins are not made up.You just assert otherwise.If you cannot accept the obvious then I will not waste my time.I also gave you my source, if I didn't then you would of demanded it, but because I gave it you then dismissed it - double standard.Your made up silly word renderings is an insult to what I said with source cite.I have no desire to go further based upon your reaction to evidence with source cite. In other words, nothing matters - whats the use.Argue the OP and your opinion of how it is wrong or remain silent.If you evade a Biblical argument to the OP then you are accepting the OP as fact.How much knowledge did you have in O.T. promise tracing prior to this debate ?The content of your posts says zero, so shouldn't you be a little more humble ?This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-06-2004 04:16 PM

That was my point concerning your attitude.But I see that it has changed.I will return to the post before last and answer your points.

Agreed. They probably did to a certain extent.But, as we both agree their mothers were not all the same.What is of utmost importance is the fact that the unified kingdom split after the death of Solomon.Jeroboam became king of the North/House of Israel.Rehoboam retained his crown but only over two tribes.The Southern Kingdom of Judah, capitol of Jerusalem, thus commenced on its own and gradually developed its own unique ethnic traits.ONLY after this split did the residents of the South become known as "Jews".As hundreds of years progressed, and as God punished both kingdoms for idol worship, the Northern kingdom did not return from Assyrian captivity, but the Southern did from their forced sojourn.Circa Ezra/Nehemiah, these returning exiles from Babylon, that is peoples of the Southern Kingdom became the Jewish presence in Palestine in Christ's day. "Pharisees", hence children of Pharez, Genesis 38, the line of Judah which did not inherit the birthright spoken of by Jacob in Genesis 49. Zarah got the birthright per Genesis 38 red cord. The Zarahites were the hated Shepard King rulers which ruled in Egypt post-Joseph. When a Pharoah "who knew not Joseph" came to power these egyptians evicted the Zarahites.Where did the Zarahites go ?Lets leave that there for right now.We have two kingdoms and hundreds and hundreds of years of history between them respectively.How could they all look the same after hundreds of years and the kingdom split ?The point is that the Jews are soley descended from the Southern Kingdom. Their racial heritage and traits, circa Ezra/Nehemiah ONWARDS is HOW WE expect a Jew to look like ?The Northern 10 tribe kingdom were already resettled by the Assyrians circa 720 BC. From this point in history onwards they are dispersed and long separated from their "Jewish" brethern.Why would they look "Jewish" ? NO !Why would they embrace that whom they hated ?How could a mass population group look exclusively "Jewish" ?All Jews are Hebrews/Israelites but not all Hebrews/Israelites are Jews. Good point.Aryan racist slugs constantly brag how they descend from the birthright children.Once I confronted one of these assholes and pointed out that E/M were half egyptian going out the gate.Of course, this person almost strangled me in response.The fact that they had an egyptian mother proves my point about the two kingdoms could not all possiby retain "Jewish" looks.What I am saying is that the ten tribe kingdom are not Jews nor were they ever.They are Hebrews/Israelites who parted ways in history two separate times, and the last time has them dispersed across Eurasia.We assume Hebrews/Israelites all were Jews and look as such (whatever that means).This means the Jews, per the OP, per the O.T. were not birthright recipients of Abrahamic promises EXCEPT the right to rule and make laws. (Genesis 49:10) This is why so many Jews are in government - God enabling a race to keep His word per Genesis 49.Joseph got everything else in the birthright which included all the promises to Abraham.Jews are a tiny worldwide minority.The Celtic-Anglo-Saxon nations and the U.S.A. are the descendants of the dispersed 10 tribes. This is why ALL the promises given to Abraham are fulfilled in the British Empire/U.S.A.Thomas Paine recognized this fact and lost his faith thinking the Jews were the recipients of the Abrahamic promises. Ingersoll the Great Atheist acknowledged this fact also but attributed it to be promise-failure = no God exists.U.S.A. in prophecy ?Everytime the Bible refers to "House of Israel" and THEIR Northern tribe promises it means those DESCENDANTS = U.S.A./Britain.And a secular world at large focuses on a cult to totally dismiss the truth of history - how weak and dishonest.Who else "possesses the gates of their enemies" ?The Jews certainly do not.This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-06-2004 05:42 PM

Agreed. The Northern Kingdom was employed as a buffer state between the Assyrians and their future-to-be-conquerers the Medo-Persians.And the Jewish desolation period of a desolate land equals the seventy years of sabbath land violation that occurred during the previous 490 years. Agreed.BECAUSE Hosea 1 says God DIVORCED Israel/North. 70 years - not 50. Agreed.BECAUSE per Hosea 1, God did NOT divorce Judah/South, He only punished her. Here you suddenly inter-mix the two kingdoms.Judah/South, because of Daniel, was enabled by God to return to Palestine at the end of the 70 year punishment period. But like you said, they chose to remain in "enemy" territory and snub the invitation by God.Israel/North was divorced by God and "forsaken" by "temporary" dispersal out into Eurasia. It doesn't matter if their was a homeland or not to come back to. Hosea clearly tells us that God divorced Israel/North. Who were the Galatians ?Answer: Fierce Celtic marauders who pushed their way through Asia minor.According to Dr. Scott these "barbarians" (the general term used by history) would SING prior to battle in unison as for their enemy to hear. The above passage evidences the ORIGIN of an army SINGING prior to battle.They remembered how God delivered them according to promise as their forefathers believed the promised deliverance and sang praises to God as they marched toward the enemy.Tacitis records the impassioned speech of captured Selurian King Carodoc (Caracticus in Roman) who withstood many years of war with Rome only to be betrayed by a woman.Unprecedented, the Roman Senate grants their arch-enemy house arrest in Rome instead of execution.Carodoc's daughter - Gladys is adopted by the Emperor and re-named Claudia, who marries Roman Senator Rufus Pudens, they have a son named Linus. That Selurian household in Rome is the household that Paul addresses his Roman letter to. Rufus Pudens was Paul's brother.Linus is the first name on all Pope lists.That Selurian household were christian converts DESCENDANTS of the Zarahites who eventually established themselves in Britain.The Zarahites were evicted by the egyptians about 100 years prior to the Exodus.Brutus/British. Founded New Troy/LonDAN. Descendant of Darda/Dardanus, descendant of Judah.(1Kings 4:31)The Pharez line is in Rome (Rufus Pudens) and it is joined with the Zarah line by marriage = Christians.I contend the [edit: unprecedented] refusal to execute Caradoc was a miracle by God and His control over history to keep His word to Abraham, Joseph, Judah, and David is stunning.I know I have trampled across vast swaths of history, but it is nonetheless true.This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-07-2004 09:37 PM