How Can Trinity Believers Explain This

Back in Message 94, I said :

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The Trinity doctrine does not appear in the Bible, it is derived from the Bible.

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In the same message (and elsewhere) I also referred to a number of verses which point towards the Trinity doctrine. Back in Message 168, I said :

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Jesus says the Father is greater than him, because his position was different than that of God, not His nature. We know (Heb. 2:9) that Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels, when he became a man. The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10), as a man, as well as God. So Jesus, the man , admits that his Father is greater than him. Also, as a man, he needs to pray to the Father (John 17).

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So, like I said, please look at the whole thread before further comments. I hate having to quote myself.thanks,

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Then, how do you explain that YHWH is called the Mighty God in Jeremiah 32:18 and Isaiah 10:21 ?

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Greetings,Ecclesiastes 12:13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.Genesis 18 "Abraham and the three visitors" hmmm....

Water does not prove the trinity at all. On the contrary, water when it is gas, liquid, or solid shows water to be the same thing in different stages or different forms. They are not gas, liquid, and solid at the same time. God, with the verses you used stated that He, not us, is one God and that there is no other beside Him, not us. God the Father was God to mankind. God the Son was the same God to the Man, Jesus. God the HolySpirit is Who God is. Remember, in Luke the angel says to Mary that "For this 'reason' the child will be called the Son of God, because the Holy Spirit will come upon you and you will become pregnant with a child." In the Old Testament God was God above us, during the days of Jesus He was God with us, after Jesus went to Heaven He became God in us. Not three persons, but three forms. And yes, at 325 a.d. was when it was believed to be a trinity by the Catholic Church. Before then it wasn't the Apostles' teachings, but others within the believers that began to believe this. Remember when Jesus said in Matthew's Gospel that the "Name" of the Father, Son, and the HolySpirit...not Name(s). And notice that that "Name" in the book of Acts that Paul, Peter, Philip and John used was "baptizing them in the Name of Jesus Christ" were they disobeying Jesus by doing this? No. They understood Him. Jesus was the Name of God in the New Testament in that He has saved us...which is what Jesus means. The Holy Spirit became a man and that man grew up as a normal human being which is why He called himself the Son of man. He did not cheat. He had to be baptized, pray, live the life of a man. As a matter of fact according to the Epistles He is still a man. Although He was God in the beginning, He became a man and a man forever. That man sits at the right hand of the Omnipresent God Who can not cease to exist. The throne of God was, is, and always will be occupied by God...so whenever He manifests Himself anywhere else in His Universe, including becoming a human being in the womb of a woman, His Omnipresent Self still remains on His Throne...see the Gospel of John.

May I suggest you break your post down into paragraphs. It makes it much easier to read. Thanks.

First of all, the problem here is that you do not understand God and what it means to be omnipresent. Then, no matter where He manifests Himself in His Universe He always remains on His Throne, in Heaven.Jesus, is that self same God Who was on the Throne, is on the Throne, and always will be on the Throne. Read John chapter 3 verse 13 where Jesus says "no man has ascended up to heaven except he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man 'which IS in heaven'".And John chapter 1 verse 1 he calls Jesus God. The New World Translation says: a god...how can He be a god when throughout the whole Old and New Testaments God said "There is no other God beside me."? The problem you have comprehending this is that Jesus was God become a human man. And you keep confusing the comments that that man God became makes as a man and God being God on His Throne.(John 3:13) The man had to live a normal life on earth eat, learn, pray, be baptized, etc... in order to qualify as a man, which He had become and will be forever. Paul called Him the second Adam because He took Adam's place as the ruler of God's creation see Psalms. It's the man that is the Son of God. Before He became a man see John chapter 1...He was not the Son of God, for Psalms says "today I have become your Father, today I have begotten you." speaking of the man, not Who He was before... the Gospel of John is clear that Jesus was God. And Isaiah, especially is clear that there is only one God. You need to know the difference between the man Jesus and the Omnipresent God on His Throne. Jesus calls Himself the "I AM" in John 8 verse 58. He is very clear that He existed before He became a man. It is the man that is the Son of God or the second Adam...remember if it was Him spiritually that was the Son of God...then how can He be the second Adam if He was here before and He even created the first one? Think about it.

Thank you for those two. A few more might even be better.Btw there is a flood question for you:
Evidence for and against Flood theories

Well, not quite. What GOD says is that "You will have no other GOD before me." Most of the OT is very polytheistic and there are many, many examples of people beliving that a GOD is attached to a particular piece of land, a region, or a people.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

you mean henotheistic.the bible doesn't take a very clear standpoint on the existance and validity of other gods. in some respect, it seems fine with the fact that other people worship other gods. but the hebrew can only worship one, who is "the most high" of the others, and always seems to win. (wouldn't your patron god if you wrote the bible? who'd write their god as a loser?)but as to whether or not they're THERE is a good question. ben'eloyhim could be read as "family of god" and basically mean other gods. so in genesis 6, "the other gods found the human women attractive; and had sex with whomever they wanted to."but that's just one possible reading.

John 2:18-21 has historically posed a very difficult problem for the Watchtower Society, since a straightforward reading of the text refutes two core Watchtower doctrines, these being that Jesus (and by extension mankind in general) does not possess an immaterial soul or spirit element, and that Jesus was not raised bodily from the dead. In opposition to the plain teaching of John 2:18-21, the Society teaches that: Notice:This setting shows that Jesus was not talking about his physical body, but "he was talking about the temple of his body". ... Now with this broadened view of matters we must return to the consideration of Jesus' words, "In three days I will raise it up." We have seen how he did start giving attention to the building up of the temple of living stones after his resurrection on the third day of his death. ... this building of "the temple of his body" started then and continued through the years that followed ... Jesus' words, "In three days I will raise it up," were merely predicting that the [spiritual] temple would be raised up on the third day after his death on the torture stake, and Jehovah God was the one who raised up the temple by first raising up the head member of it, the Lord Jesus Christ, and from then on, from that third day on, God used him to raise up all the other members of the temple class. (Zech. 6:12)So through the Roman military the Jews broke down the chief and initial member of God's spiritual temple, but on the third day Jehovah raised him as a spirit creature and chief cornerstone of the spiritual temple. --The Watchtower, October 1, 1952, page 606-7 (emphasis added).By 1969 however, the Watchtower Society had backed away from this highly subjective and obscure explanation of John 2:18-21. Watchtower leaders abandoned their claim that Jesus was not talking about his body, instead admitting that John 2:18-21 was indeed a "plain statement" pertaining to the literal death and resurrection of Jesus:To begin with, Jesus himself repeatedly foretold that he would be raised from the dead. Early in his ministry he referred to it, saying: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." "He was talking about the temple of his body." (John 2:19-21) ... How can we understand all these plain statements if Jesus was not actually raised from the dead? --The Watchtower, November 15, 1969, page 678 (emphasis added).But this newfound acceptance of John 2:18-21 as a "plain statement" on the resurrection of Christ leaves the Watchtower Society in the undesirable position of having their doctrine - - refuted by a plain reading of scripture. Obviously unacceptable, the Watchtower Society would clarify their position by concluding that Jesus "simply could not have meant that he would raise himself up from the dead":As evident from the context, John 2:19 pertains to the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. ... Other scriptures clearly show that God was the One who resurrected his Son. ... Accordingly, Jesus Christ simply could not have meant that he would raise himself up from the dead. --The Watchtower, June 1, 1973, page 350-1 (emphasis added).
There you have it. John 2:18-21, a "plain statement" of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; yet Jesus "simply could not have meant" what he very plainly stated! How ridiculous! Either it is a "plain statement" or it is not. If it is, as the Society professes, then clearly Jesus predicted that HE WOULD RAISE HIS OWN BODY. Now unless we are to accuse Jesus of lying, or otherwise disregard any notion of the book of John being an inspired account - neither of which the Watchtower Society is prepared to do - we must accept that Jesus Christ did indeed raise his own body. This is one of many arguments against this "plain teaching" that you look up to. I do not deny that there is much scholastic teaching in Witness culture...much more so than most Christian culture>>However, the teaching is based on a false authority structure.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 11-25-2004 03:24 AM

The debate is whether or not you think that Jesus was created or whether you believe that He eternally existed?

I think these verses below in Daniel can help us understand the relationship between God and Jesus. Clearly God [The Father] is the Ancient of Days described below and the Son of Man is clearly Jesus. By the way this is the Heavenly Jesus as these events did not take place here on earth. What these verses tell me is that YAHWEH and Jesus are clearly separate beings (Though one in purpose and will) and in Hierarchical terms YAHWEH is clearly greater.Daniel 7:9,10 & 13"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed."

Dear Legend;

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unless the context gives strong reason to do so. So far, I can't see this as being the case.

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It seems that we both agree that the word 'proskyneo' can not be used to prove or disprove the Trinity by itself since the context in regard to the Trinity, is at issue here.

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But if you prefer not to get stuck on specific words and translations, look at how both Jehovah and Jesus are given the same worship by the 24 elders in the book of Revelation. . . . Every creature in heaven and on the earth give identical praise and worship to both God and Christ in verse 5:13-14. No differentiation in worshiping God and Jesus there.

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Revelation 5:13-14 states "To the One sitting on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever." And the four living creatures went saying: "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped." Notice that in the first part of the verse, blessing, honor, glory and might are addressed to both Jehovah and Jesus. Then in the second part the elders fall down and worship, but whom are they worshipping? I quoted this verse from the NWT which never translates 'proskyneo' as worship when directed towards Jesus, so the worship is not viewed as being directed to Jesus by the translators of the NWT. If we look back a chapter we find that that the 24 elders worship Jehovah.
Revelation 4:9-11 "And whenever the living creatures offer glory and honor and thanksgiving to the one seated upon the throne, the one that lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before the One seated upon the throne and worship the One that lives forever and ever, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying: "You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created."Then if we look ahead two chapters we again find the 24 elders worshipping Jehovah.
Revelation 7:11 "And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God,Again in chapter 11 again find the 24 elders worshipping Jehovah.
Revelation 11:16-17 "And the twenty-four elders who were seated before God upon their thrones fell upon their faces and worshiped God, saying: "We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty." Throughout the book of Revelation we have the 24 elders worshiping Jehovah, there is no indication that in chapter 5 when Christ is present that the worship is being directed to him. Which is why the translators of the NWT were comfortable with using the word "worship" in verse 14.

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When Jesus says (Luke 4:8) "It is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship...", he is quoting from scripture and this is what is of significance. He could easily banish Satan, as God. Instead, he fights Satan as a man, using the only human resources available, i.e. scripture. This is why he says "It is written" and he doesn't say straight 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship'. This is also why he doesn't say 'worship me'. Jesus is making a point of countering evil with scripture, not explicitly specifying who should be worshipped.

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Or maybe Jesus is acting as a man because he is physically just a man? And why is Satan foolishly trying to convince God to worship him, if Jesus is God? It makes sense that Satan would test Jesus if he was a man, (Hebrews 5:8 "Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered." Obedience to whom?) because Satan's claim is that he can turn every human from serving Jehovah, but testing God makes no sense at all. Whereas a perfect man could be turned against God as Adam was, God is beyond temptation and even the Devil knows that. The fact that Jesus was not part of God and was only a man is shown by; Hebrews 2:9 "we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels," Man is lower than the angels, God or part God, is not.Paul taught that Jesus was a man, not a God-man. Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man" 1 Timothy 2:5-6 "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom" Jesus being anything more than a perfect man while on earth would be in direct conflict with scripture.

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But both Psalms 45:6 and Heb 1:8 make perfect sense when translated as "Your throne, O God, is for ever.....". Where do you see the change in verses or meaning ?
The Greek transcript says: "o Thronos sou o Theos". . . . The verse could be translated as "God is your throne", in a loose manner, if the context implied it, but the absence of the verb "eine (to be)" is a strong indication that this verse should be literally translated as "Your throne, O God..."

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The rendering "Your throne, O God," at Psalms 45:6 as I pointed would have a human King being called God in the absolute sense of the word which is only used in scripture to refer to Jehovah since only he is almighty. This rendering is nonsensical which is why the other rendering is far better and is why better Bible translations render it that way. Doing some checking I find that the LXX wording allows either translation, but as I just pointed out, only one of the two allowable translations makes sense. It also it would not be a quote if Hebrews 1:8 changed the meaning by changing the key wording. The context is clear in Hebrews that Jesus is being spoken about, so it would not be in harmony with the context to call him God in the absolute sense, as the changed wording would imply.

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. . . Psalm 89:29 has a symbolic meaning when applied to Jesus. . . . 'Throne' doesn't refer to God's or Jesus's relation to, or authority over, each other, but it symbolizes Jesus's place amongst his 'seed'.

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Psalm 89:29 "And I shall certainly set up ... his throne" Jehovah states that he will set up Jesus' throne, the wording is clear that Jehovah is the one who gives the authority to rule to Jesus. After all, it was what Isaiah prophesied about the coming messiah. Isaiah 9:7 "upon the throne of David . . . The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this." And this prophecy was applied to Jesus. Luke 1:32 "Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father," Jehovah is the one who gives the throne to Jesus.

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You also seem to be reading 'God appoints Jesus as King' where it says '...whom he hath appointed heir of all things...' ! Jesus is the heir of all things because the world is not the way God created it - man's sinfulness has corrupted it. God gave the world to man but man forfeited it to Satan. The purpose of Jesus's coming was to redeem the earth back to God, hence he is the rightful 'heir'.

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The above scriptures show that Jesus was appointed as king by Jehovah, "heir of all things" means he is appointed as king and as such he inherits all things. The earth or world that Satan has control of is the world of sinful mankind, the 'title deed' of the planet has never been an issue. Christ died to save mankind, not the physical earth.

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Jesus the man, is not the King, he's the heir, who came -in human form- to reclaim the world, in the name of the king (the Trinity God).

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Matthew 27:11 "Are you the king of the Jews?" Jesus replied: "You yourself say [it]." Acts 17:7 "saying there is another king, Jesus." Jesus stated that he was the King and his disciples taught that Jesus was the King.

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The entire context of Hebrews chapter 1 teaches that the Son is God, equal to the Father as deity and sits with the Father on the heavenly throne. . . . I've explained Hebrews 1:2 above. Where is he called the "master worker" ? It's not in Proverbs.

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Proverbs 8:22-31 "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men." In these verses wisdom is personified, many scholars recognize these verses as also speaking of Jesus Christ, do you disagree with that interpretation? Paul taught that Jehovah created everything by means of Jesus. Hebrews 1:2 "a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things" Hence the title master worker. Paul wrote the book of Hebrews to stress how Christianity was better than Judaism, being the fulfillment of the promises and Paul stressed the high position Jesus holds as King & prest and mediator. He never stats that Jesus is part or equal to Jehovah. If you wish to support this argument you will need to cite specific verses and wording.

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"All things came into existence through him" (John 1:3) is referring to the Word, who, BTW, is God (John 1:1), therefore he is uncreated (as Paul says in Colossians 1:16).
Speaking of Colossians, I notice that you insert the word "[other]" in there. This is an extrapolation on your behalf. No such word (or grammatical reason to insert this word) exists in the Greek scripture. Colossians 1:16 clearly says that Jesus created all things.

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Yes, and in my opinion an unnecessary one since the text is clear without it. But there is support for the wording, another verse has a simular construction and has the same clarification. (Luke 11:41) "look! all [other] things are clean about YOU." So it does add in understanding the verse, but you can get the sense of it without it. Let's look at the verse and I will insert some comments. Colossians 1:15-20 "He is the image of the invisible God (why 'image' why not just say 'he is god'? Paul is trying to exalt Jesus, why is Jesus only stated to be the image of God, because he is not God.), the firstborn of all creation;(to be born you have to have a beginning, to time when you came to be. Firstborn of creation, means that Jesus was created first) because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth,(See what I mean? The context is talking about everything that was created through Jesus which of course doesn't include Jehovah or Jesus since they are the ones doing the creation.) the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead,(Jesus is firstborn of the dead, meaning that he was the first one to be raised to heaven. Jesus is, God is not since God has never died and can never die.) that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him (Jesus) to reconcile again to himself (Jehovah) all [other] things." Jesus stated that he was created by Jehovah before the creation of everything else. Revelation 3:14 "the beginning of the creation by God," Jesus has to have a beginning, to be a son, you have to be born, you have to have a creation. For Jehovah to be Jesus' father, he had to 'father him' he had to create him. After all he is God's firstborn son.

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"Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone'" (Isaiah 44:24).
this verse is clearly saying that there is only one God, who's stretching out the heavens ALONE.
compare this with Colossians 1:15-16 where Jesus is the creator of all things. If you think that Jesus is a separate being and God's master creator, this poses a contradiction between the two verses. The only plausible explanation is that Jehovah is not simply the name of the Father, but that it is the name of God the Trinity. Therefore, since Jesus is God in flesh, it can be said that Jesus created all things and that Jehovah did it alone.

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1 Kings 6:2 "And the house that King Solomon built to Jehovah was sixty cubits" Did Solomon build the house without any workers? It is like if you build your own house, you will probably hire tradesmen for specific jobs. Jehovah created the universe by himself using Jesus as his master worker. Since Jesus is the "master" worker, the angels may of had some part in the creation too. But all the credit goes to Jehovah since he is the architect and the controlling power behind all creation by who's will all things have taken place. Look at how God makes the sun rise everyday, he doesn't do it directly, but it happens according to the physical laws he set in place. Isaiah 44:24 is stating that Jehovah alone is creator, no one else can claim that title, even Jesus is merely his master worker.

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One more thing: if I'm reading you correctly, you seem to believe that Jesus was created by God and he's 'like' God but not 'quite' God. In my eyes, that gives us 2 gods (albeit one 'lesser' than the other). This is contradicted in the Bible:
"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10)
"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." (Isaiah 44:8)

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This is a common misunderstanding. In the Bible the word or title "god" is used in a lesser sense and an absolute sense. Here Jesus uses the lesser sense. John 10:34-35 "Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "YOU are gods"'? If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came," Here Jesus was stating that in Psalm 82:1 Jehovah is calling men gods, this is the lesser sense of the term. While in the scriptures you cited, the absolute meaning is used. Here is a classic verse where both the greater and lesser meaning of the title 'god' are used in the same verse. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 "just as there are many "gods" (lesser) and many "lords," there is actually to us one God (absolute sense, notice the capital 'G'.) the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are," Notice also that Paul states that everything was created through Jesus. Paul stated that there are many 'gods' but only one GOD. So you are right, Jesus is a mighty god, but there is only one Almighty God, Jehovah.I will also point out that you haven't dealt with some of the scriptures I used against the Trinity in my last post, I would suggest you consider those texts carefully and consider the fact that the Bible itself is anti-Trinitarian.Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

dear wmscott,continuing on the points you raised back in Message 191.

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(John 5:19)
* The Son does nothing independently (he is not a separate being); He is fully submitted to the Father's will - by choice, not by coercion (v20: "For the Father loves the Son")
*. The Son has the same power as the Father - even to raise the dead (v21)
* The Son even has the right of judgment - a prerogative of God only (v22)
* All should honor Jesus just as they honor the Father; if they don't honour the Son then they don't honour the father (v24)
Also, going back to v19. how could a 'lesser' God ( as you imply ) do all the things he sees the Father can?

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This is reasoning that is drawn on and can be applied only to humans. But God is not human, so you cannot apply this on this occasion. The Trinity consists of three separate 'persons' (please note the quotes), each with their own will, but who are One in essence and purpose. If there are two separate beings (Father and Son), each with their own will and essence, there is nothing stopping one from leaving / disagreeing / contradicting the other, other than subjugation, as in a Master / Servant relationship. In a Trinity, this can never happen, as the two have their own will but are one essence and their purpose is one, not by coercion (as it would be if they were two separate beings), but by love and that is emphasised in v20: "For the Father loves the Son". First of all, where is it said that the power was granted to him ? You are confusing Delegation of Authority with Granting Power . Nowhere it is mentioned that Jesus didn't have the power before. It's just that now, he has the authority, given to him by the Father.Second,in Philippians 2, Paul implies that Jesus emptied Himself of all powers, privileges, and abilities he had enjoyed previously in order to become a man just like you or me, yet without sin."But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men" (Phil 2:7)This suggests that he had the power before he became incarnate.Whichever way you look at it, you cannot say that he didn't have the power before.Also, to preempt you, delegation of authority does not imply subordination in stature or power.To use a crude analogy, if you think of me and my colleague John, we both have the same status and power, but he is producing test documents, while I'm producing design documents. This is our role at work. If, one day, he gives me the authority to produce test documents myself, I'll accept it and do it, not because I'm ordered to do so (we are of the same status at work) but because I like and respect him. Just because he delegated his authority, doesn't mean he's now my boss, or that he's more capable than I am, it's just that he's given me authority to do something that he's been doing. I always had the ability (power), I just didn't have the authority. I now have it and will exercise it at my own will.This is the situation in John 5:21 : "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. "The Son here is not only doing the same divine acts as the Father (notice both the raising and the quickening), but doing it as the result of his own will and without any restrictions, even as the Father does it. This statement is very significant in relation to the miracles of Jesus, distinguishing them from similar miracles of prophets and apostles, who as human instruments were employed to perform supernatural actions, while Jesus did all as the Father's commissioned agent indeed, but in the exercise of his own absolute right of action. Jesus has the same power as the father and the will to use it as he sees fit. Again, notice the word "commited", which implies delegation of authority. No indication of transfer of power there. Just because "the Father judges no one at all" doesn't mean that the Father packed up and left, but that he is governing by Jesus Christ, so that man is not overawed by dealing with God directly, but has the comfort of access to him by a Mediator. Why does the Father let Jesus do the judging? Because Jesus walked in the same places we walk. He was tempted at all points like all men (Hebrews 4:15). An interesting point is that God (Jehovah) made numerous judgements in the OT:"For Jehovah shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left." (Deuteronomy 32:36)"And therefore will Jehovah wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for Jehovah is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him." (Isaiah 30:18)"Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah. (Ezekiel 11:10)"Now, in the NT does God change his mind and stop judging people and gives the power to Jesus ? Ofcourse not, he's still judging, as before, but now he reveals that Jesus is the one who does the judgement. Why does he tell us that now? because now we know Jesus and can empathize with him because he was a man, just like us.What is interesting is how you can explain that Jehovah judges in the OT and the NT {John) says that "the Father judges no one at all" ?! My explanation: Jehovah is the name of the Trinity God. He judges now, as he always did and we now know that he judges through Jesus. What is your explanation ? I'm quite glad you brought Philipians up, as I had forgotten about these verses. First of all, a couple of errors in your translation :
1) "God exalted him to a superior position" - there is no superior position here. The correct translation is "highly exalted". The Greek word is "hyper-ypsosen", literally translated as "raised above".
2) "the name that is above every [other] name" - There is no "other" here. The sentence is literally translated as "the name which is above every name"
3) The translation of the Greek "eharisato" as "kindly gave" is misleading, as it has connotations of acts of charity and mercy and not of freely giving between equals. The word is literally translated as "has gifted" (past perfect tense of verb "gift") and can also be translated as "has given".The correct translation for verses 2:9-11 is:
9 "Wherefore God also has highly exalted him, and given him the name which is above every name"
10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; "
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (KJV)What does the first part of verse 9 tell us ? He's obviously highly exalted (in both his human and divine nature),after being humbled - verse 7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant... ". His exaltation was the reward for his humiliation. Because he humbled himself, God highly exalted him. He exalted his whole person, the human nature as well as the divine. As it befits the divine nature, it could only be the recognizing of his rights, or the display and appearance of the glory he had with the Father before the world was (Jn. 17:5), not any new acquisition of glory. Thereby, the Father himself is said to be exalted ("to the glory of God the Father").But how highly exactly is he exalted? is it as high as God the Father? this becomes obvious in the second part of the sentence. God has given him "the name which is above every name", (note the definitive article "the" before "name"). That is a name second to none, a clear reference to the divine Name YHWH. God calls Jesus (again) by his own name!This is further re-inforced in verses 10-11, where the whole world is brought into submission to him!
Paul's use of "those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" is intended to convey the absolute totality of all creation recognizing the superiority of Jesus. The author is drawing on Isaiah 45:23: "I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath". Note that it is to YHWH that all knees bow and tongues confess to in Isaiah; in Philippians it is to Jesus, showing that Jesus is YHWH!classic Trinitarian stuff, this. Don't know how I'd forgotten about it!**EDITED for spelling errorsThis message has been edited by Legend, 11-27-2004 06:03 AM

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

As I pointed out in Message 193, Luke 4:8 is about fighting evil with scripture, not a statement about who should and shouldn't be worshipped. Furthermore, there are numerous passages in the Bible that suggest that Jehovah (YHWH) was the name used for the Trinity God. I'm quoting myself from Message 193

quote:

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compare this with Colossians 1:15-16 where Jesus is the creator of all things. If you think that Jesus is a separate being and God's master creator, this poses a contradiction between the two verses. The only plausible explanation is that Jehovah is not simply the name of the Father, but that it is the name of God the Trinity. Therefore, since Jesus is God in flesh, it can be said that Jesus created all things and that Jehovah did it alone.

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.Worshipping Jehovah (Trinity God) doesn't preclude worshipping Jesus, on the contrary, it demands it! Paul is saying here, that there is no valid way to God that does not come through Jesus. How do you infer that Jesus can't be God if he is the mediator ?? God consists of three 'persons', with Jesus having the role of the mediator. How does the above verse contradict this ? yeeess, we both agree that Jesus is the mediator... what is your point? well, Jesus contradicts you :"And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."(John 14:13)
"If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it .
"(John 14:14) Rom 10:12 says , for there is the same Lord (Jesus v. 9) over all, who is rich to all those CALLING UPON him. If Jesus is not to be prayed to, then why does Paul say that they will be rich who call upon him? Similarly, Paul says in 1Cor 1:2, together with all who everywhere are calling upon the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours and in 2Tim 2:22 he says, but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, along with those who CALL UPON THE LORD out of a clean heart. If Christians should not pray to Jesus, then why did the early Christians call upon Jesus? How can a person call upon Jesus without praying to him? The indication that Stephen's vision ended before he was stoned is that in between seeing Jesus in v.56 and crying out to Him in v.59 Stephen is "driven out of the city" and stoned by a hostile mob (verse 58). Are you suggesting that Stephen was having the vision all along while running away from the city pursued by an angry mob who were stoning him ?!Also note in verse 57 "Then they cried out... " (emphasis is mine). "Then" indicates chronological sequence. First, he had the vision (v56), then they chased him out (v57). "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God , and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)He is calling upon God using Jesus's name!
He is using the same words that Jesus used to pray to the Father in Luke 23:46 (receive the spirit)!
If this is not a prayer, then what is it ??!
Also, how is this rejecting Jesus's role as the mediator ?Acts 7:59 and Luke 23:46 were written by the same author and use the same wording to describe an action undertaken by two different persons, It is clear that the author intended for both persons to be seen as doing the same action, i.e. praying!

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."