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Author Topic:   Evidence for and against Flood theories
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 1 of 112 (163077)
11-24-2004 11:14 PM


In another thread d yankee posted:
The Flood evidences are everywhere. The continental plates, the ocean floor ridges, the fossils, the frozen mammoths/giants, the Canyons, earthquakes, the prizm/rainbow, historic records of the different cultures and civilizations, the Pyramids/Sphinx showing water corrosion, bone and fossil findings in areas of the world where the animal did not or could not have existed and habitated,...etc...everything you see around us shows the fingerprints of the Great Flood...just open your eyes and mind for that matter.
It seems these are considered to be evidence for a flood.
In this thread we can, one at a time, consider these and see how well these support the flood or another theory.
This will overlap with a number of other threads
My first question for d yankee is:
There are fossil sea shells high in mountains all over the world. In what way is this evidence for a flood?
What would the flood model predict that we would find when examining these in detail and how would it differ from the current model of geology (plate tectonics)?
This is how different ideas are sorted out. We find a different prediction of them and see what we find in the real world.
Warning! Yankee-- your websites haven't handled this well at all. They ignore some important points. But you were the one who posted the above so now it's your problem.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dynamo321, posted 11-25-2004 12:09 AM NosyNed has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 112 (163078)
11-24-2004 11:16 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 112 (163093)
11-25-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by NosyNed
11-24-2004 11:14 PM


There are fossil sea shells high in mountains all over the world. In what way is this evidence for a flood?
- Did not see the origonal post so I don't know exactly how to answer
What would the flood model predict that we would find when examining these in detail and how would it differ from the current model of geology (plate tectonics)?
- No one knows "exactly" what the earth was like pre-flood therefore it is hard for me to triangulate. or anyone else for that matter in my understanding. I do know however that when our current continents are placed together back into the "gia" (i call it) formation, many of the countries have to be shrunk in order for it to fit together properly.
Video 1 on this website http://evolution.no-ip.com covers this topic but I can't find where at the moment. Somewhere in the middle of the content. skip the first 20 min of the presentation though if you want to view it. I am sure this website will handle your challenges far better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by NosyNed, posted 11-24-2004 11:14 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 11-25-2004 1:01 AM Dynamo321 has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 112 (163109)
11-25-2004 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dynamo321
11-25-2004 12:09 AM


Explanation
You'll have to pull the relevent points from it yourself.
I think I have, at one time, gone over that film, I'm not going to again if you can't be more specific. There should be no need to anyway, you can tell us.
So far all you can say is that you don't know much about what the flood model has to say. That's a bit of a weak start isn't it?
There wasn't any original post that went into details of the shells. In fact, I've never, ever seen any creationists give any details. It turns out that the details are damaging to the idea of a flood and it should be no surprise that I am leading the literalists (d yankee specifically) in that direction.
The person who I aimed this at originally (d yankee) claimed to know a lot about the sciences so I expect him to have some answers. I don't recall you making any such strong claim so if you need to say you don't know or don't have an answer I don't see that as a problem.
If you don't know exactly what the world was like "pre flood" you may use the scientific approach. You postulate a number of ideas of what is might have been like and then see if any of them are suported by the evidence. If one or two don't work you try some more.
Good luck.
There is not need to make up a name for the joined continental masses. The times that has happened all the land masses have names already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dynamo321, posted 11-25-2004 12:09 AM Dynamo321 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Dynamo321, posted 11-25-2004 1:41 AM NosyNed has replied
 Message 7 by JonF, posted 11-25-2004 9:30 AM NosyNed has replied

  
Dynamo321
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 112 (163117)
11-25-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
11-25-2004 1:01 AM


Re: Explanation
Ok. I will look foreward to his post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 11-25-2004 1:01 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 11-25-2004 1:51 AM Dynamo321 has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 6 of 112 (163124)
11-25-2004 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dynamo321
11-25-2004 1:41 AM


Me too !
It is always fun!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dynamo321, posted 11-25-2004 1:41 AM Dynamo321 has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 7 of 112 (163167)
11-25-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
11-25-2004 1:01 AM


Re: Explanation
quote:
There wasn't any original post that went into details of the shells. In fact, I've never, ever seen any creationists give any details. It turns out that the details are damaging to the idea of a flood and it should be no surprise that I am leading the literalists (d yankee specifically) in that direction.
Yup. That's been my experience too.
In fact, as far as this argument goes the creationists are much, much farther behind the times than they usually are. Leonardo da Vinci figured out that those shells were not the result of any flood, global or local, in the 15th century, because their arrangement and condition were not compatible with flood transport. See Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) and Leonardo da Vinci: genius and precursor.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 11-25-2004 1:01 AM NosyNed has replied

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 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 11-27-2004 6:40 PM JonF has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 112 (163561)
11-27-2004 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by JonF
11-25-2004 9:30 AM


Bump for d yankee
Now that you're back I have to apologize for suggesting that you might be a hit and run or bluffer. You can pick up here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by JonF, posted 11-25-2004 9:30 AM JonF has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 112 (163915)
11-29-2004 12:36 PM


It is also important to add that the seashells are not ON the mountain but IN the mountain (ie Mt. Everest). The top portion of Mt. Everest is limestone that is riddled with seashells. If a flood were responsible for the seashells the flood would be required to lay down hundreds of meters of limestone with seashells embedded, and then the mountain would have to be lifted 5 miles into the sky.

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 11-29-2004 12:46 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 112 (163920)
11-29-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Loudmouth
11-29-2004 12:36 PM


It is also important to note that the seashells aren't found on the same elevation everywhere. My geology professor once said as he drew on the board, "Water don't stay like this."
He continued, "Instead, we usually find water smooths out like this."

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2004 1:22 PM coffee_addict has not replied
 Message 67 by coffee_addict, posted 01-10-2005 5:09 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 112 (163924)
11-29-2004 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by coffee_addict
11-29-2004 12:46 PM


Patience
How about we remain patient and let a literalist explain the sea shells?
I'd hope TheLiteralist (literally ) might take it on since he seems to be about as reasonable a creationist has we've had for a bit. I even agree with some of his posts (which I will get to later). I'm back to suspicious that d yankee will prove to be more like the usual creo poster.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by coffee_addict, posted 11-29-2004 12:46 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Loudmouth, posted 11-29-2004 1:42 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 20 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-13-2004 9:03 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 112 (163928)
11-29-2004 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
11-29-2004 1:22 PM


Re: Patience
Perhaps Dynamo would like to argue in dYank's place? Dynamo seems to be able to argue without getting angry or calling people Satan's Children, a definite plus. I, for one, would try to carry on a civil conversation with Dynamo if he feels up to the task.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2004 1:22 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 112 (164174)
11-30-2004 7:50 PM


Bump
Well, this is a topic that I have been curious about, too.

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by AdminNosy, posted 12-01-2004 9:02 PM coffee_addict has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 14 of 112 (164510)
12-01-2004 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by coffee_addict
11-30-2004 7:50 PM


Bump for d yank
d yankee, Perhaps it is time to demonstrate your capability to use logic and evidence.
You are not, at present, contributing much of value to the forum.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 12-01-2004 09:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by coffee_addict, posted 11-30-2004 7:50 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 12-03-2004 4:01 PM AdminNosy has not replied
 Message 16 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-03-2004 4:48 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 15 of 112 (164947)
12-03-2004 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by AdminNosy
12-01-2004 9:02 PM


Re: Bump for d yank
Bump again. For some reason, people are getting off topic in other threads even though this thread is right here in front of them for them to demonstrate their position.

Hate world.
Revenge soon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by AdminNosy, posted 12-01-2004 9:02 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by TheLiteralist, posted 12-13-2004 8:52 AM coffee_addict has replied

  
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