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Author | Topic: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Your question refers to the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament that Christians take to be fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and Jesus is referring to these as the things written about Him in the Law and the Prophets. I found a site that appears to be inclusive of all the Messianic references but I haven't read through the list carefully to be sure.
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah Each reference on the following list gives first the Messianic Prophecy (paraphrased) and Where the prophecy appears in the Old Testament (written between 1450 BC and 430BC) and then gives Jesus’ fulfillment of the prophecy in the New Testament (written between 45 and 95 AD) The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4 The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26 The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33 The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23 The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22 The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32 The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 propheciesnot all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30 The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39 The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39; John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27 The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36 Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24 The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57 The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25 The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21 The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . sorry, we got carried away! The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30 Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11 The Messiah is a stone the builders rejected who will become the head cornerstone Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8 The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33 The Messiah will be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35 The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16 The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47 The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31 The Gospel according to Isaiah Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John People will hear and not believe the arm of the LORD (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38 The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15 The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30 The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14 The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42 The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33 The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13 The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15 The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at . . . year of the LORD’s favor) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10 The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7 The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11 The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10 The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56 The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45 This message has been edited by Faith, 04-16-2005 11:53 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"The Law and the Prophets" is a Biblical phrase. The Law is the Torah or Pentateuch, the first five books of Moses, and the prophets are classed as a separate book by the Jews. I checked that in fact the list gives scriptures only from the Torah and the Prophets and not from any others.
How it refers to Jesus? Well, prophecy is never a direct statement but has to be interpreted. Those who believe He is the Messiah see it all as referring to Him and each one on the list describes a specific quality or incident that is in fact reported in the New Testament about Jesus' own life and experience. As for the time it was written and the audience written for, these passages WERE understood by the Jews to refer to the promised Messiah down through the centuries before Jesus and are still taken to refer to a yet future Messiah by those Jews who reject Jesus.
quote: No, but again it's IN the Law, in the Law of Moses or the Torah. That's what "The Law and the Prophets" means.
quote: Jesus was born of a woman, that is, Mary, and had no human father. Normally human beings are said to be the offspring of Adam, and Eve is not mentioned except in connection with Adam. To be born of the woman is something very specific about the Messiah who is promised.
quote: It's simply a New Testament statement about the fact that Jesus was "born of a woman." To be said to be "born of a woman" was not exactly a Jewish way of thinking, as it was a patriarchal society, so this fact of Jesus' life is understood to refer to the prophecy in Eden that God would some day send the world a savior born of the woman. The Jews who rejected Jesus thought of him as a bastard, not having a legitimate father.
quote: Again, it occurs in the Torah, the Law, which is what Jesus meant about the Law and the Prophets, and you aren't going to find the Old Testament TELLING you in so many words that Jesus Christ is the Messiah or the Jews would have to accept Him too. Jesus was essentially saying "I am the Messiah" when He said the Law and the Prophets had spoken of Him. As always, it is left up to the hearer to believe or not believe what he says. Prophecy is purposely ambiguous. It has to be interpreted. The list is giving all the Messianic scriptures (actually there are more than that) and how Jesus is understood to fit them.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: The Christian references are the New Testament statements about the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies of the Messiah. That's why they're there.
quote: No point in arguing with you about your interpretation of the snake. Naturally the Jewish interpretation is not the Christian interpretation. The New Testament says the snake is actually Satan, and Christians believe that. As for wounding the heel, etc., the nail that fixed Jesus' feet to the cross pierced His heels, but the phrase is symbolic in any case. The Messiah will not be mortally wounded by the snake, but a head wound, which the snake is to suffer, is likely to be a mortal wound. Jesus' death utterly destroyed the power of Satan on this earth over all who believe in Him. It's just a matter of time before He returns and the devil's jig is up forever. I answered some of your points in my answer to purpledawn by the way so I'll probably just focus on others in your post.
quote: It's both a reference to the Jews and to the "new Israel" or the Christians. Again a matter of interpretation. Christians understand themselves to be "grafted in" to the "true Israel of God" and therefore part of the nation of Israel, not earthly Israel, not the state of Israel, but the heavenly Israel which is the people who follow the God of Israel.
quote: Some prophecies are now denied by the Jews as messianic because Christians claim them for Jesus but historically this was a very important messianic prophecy that the Messiah would come from Judah. This was said before David was born. Prophecy builds on prophecy throughout the OT. "Until Shiloh come" is a direct reference to the Messiah, a name of Messiah. It says that Judah will not lack kings (sceptre) or priests (lawgivers) until the Messiah comes. The fulfillment of this prophecy is historically complex, involving the Herodian kings of Judea, but the simple version is that after Jesus came the Jews had no more kings or priests at all.
quote: Or his descendants will be powerful and influential until the Messiah (Shiloh) comes and the power devolves upon Him.
quote: Prophecy often has double fulfillments, one referring to the earthly kingdom and one to the Messianic kingdom for instance.
quote: Those who reject the Messiah will be held to account.
quote: Double fulfillment in the earthly Joshua and the earthly Promised Land and a greater fulfillment in the heavenly Joshua and the heavenly Promised Land.
quote: David often speaks prophetically in the psalms. I believe we could even find Jewish teaching to this effect if we were to try to track it down. He himself is a type of the Messiah to come and knows himself to be the progenitor of the Messiah as well.
quote: It's prophetic language. A Christian credal statement is that Christ is begotten "eternally."
quote: Double fulfillment in David's reign and in the Messiah's reign to come.
quote: Matter of interpretation. But again I believe there is evidence, though it might be hard to track down, that there have been many Jewish teachers who have regarded this as Messianic prophecy. This is getting tiring, answering your whole post. Maybe I will get back to it later.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I think the answer is in Arachnophilia's post #8 :
quote: There was never again in Israel a prophet like unto Moses, and yet there is that prophecy that there WILL be a prophet like Moses. Eventually. Either the prophecy is false or eventually there WAS or WILL BE a prophet like Moses with whom God spoke face to face. Jesus Christ is the best fit.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Many prophecies have two references, one to the earthly, one to the heavenly, Jesus being the heavenly king.
quote: Well, for one thing nobody was ever raised from the dead BUT Jesus. David's psalms are often speaking from the point of view of the Messiah, according to Christian interpretation and I believe also according to some lines of Jewish interpretation. If I can find a good reference on that subject I'll post it.
quote: I'm responding in a very general way, not going into each psalm for now. Just the general point: There is usually an internal shift from a present context to another context that couldn't possibly refer to the present, as in the above case where any idea of a person's not seeing death is contradicted by the real fact that there is nobody who has not seen death EXCEPT Jesus.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I'd say it's implicit in all the many ways Jesus Himself is presented as Deity. But what would your point be? We should still await this Prophet that is supposed to like MOses?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Matrilineal, now at least, yes. Matrilocal, I don't know. But matriARCHAL, no, always patriarchal.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
incorrect. there were plenty of people raised from the dead in that book. well. by jesus.
===== Yes, AFTER Jesus, of course, and THROUGH Jesus, and BECAUSE OF Jesus, and BY Jesus, but never before Jesus. Hm. Well Elijah and Elisha raised a couple from the dead. That was a foreshadowing of Jesus too. But all those died again. Even those Jesus raised from the dead died again. Jesus however lives eternally, and after those who believe in Him die -- we all must die- we too will live with Him eternally. Jesus is the First Born of the New Creation, the first to be resurrected eternally, which He did by His own power and the power of God the Father and the power of the Holy Spirit, all three. {Edit note: Sorry, I have this bad habit of forgetting to use the "Preview" and then going back to make all kinds of changes. I'm trying to reform. Anyway, this post did get changed in too many ways and I hope it didn't cause problems for anyone trying to resond to it.) This message has been edited by Faith, 04-17-2005 12:25 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: The Hebrew word "Betulah" specifically means "virgin" so you can't say Hebrew doesn't have a word for it. However, the word "Almah" is the one used in this passage and it does mean "young woman." It is used I believe five or six times in the Old Testament and in all but two of those places it is translated "young woman" in most English translations, but in those two it is translated "virgin," one in this Isaiah passage and one in the Song of Songs. It was translated this way NOT just by Christian translators but by the Jewish translators of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures that was made two or three hundred years before Christ {Edit: the Greek for "virgin" being "Parthenos."} It was also understood to be a Messianic passage by Jews of that time. There is simply too much going on here to take the time to examine a single passage like this, but I believe just reading through it makes it clear that at some point there's no way it can be continuing to refer to the present situation with Ahaz. In any case, as I've mentioned before, prophecy, and especially messianic prophecy, usually has a double reference, both to a current or earthly situation and to a later fulfillment. "Immanuel" means God with us, certainly a Messianic title. It may also be somebody's name.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Yes but I mentioned Elijah -- and Elisha -- and pointed out that all who were raised from the dead in this life died again, including those Jesus raised. But Jesus' resurrection is eternal, the death of death forever.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Yes, I noticed that we agreed. But you seemed to be thinking of the passages Jesus had quoted rather than the Messianic passages, so that when you dismissed some of them, such as Daniel, you were missing the point. (Actually I looked it up and IIRC there are three verses in Daniel that Jesus quoted from, but I'm afraid I'd have to look it up again as I've forgotten them) Also, just as a reminder, the New Testament references on the list are statements of the fulfillments of the Messianic prophecies. The prophecies are the Old Testament scriptures, and all from the Torah, the Prophets and the Psalms and the NT give fulfillments. I forgot the psalms the first time around.
quote: Yes, but she is still a Type of Mary.
quote: Yes, but again, there is often more than one reference in Old Testament characters and images. "Seed" refers both to all her children AND to the singular Messiah. What makes the reference particularly clear is that the pronoun is not plural, but singular: "his heel" --not "their heels" but "his heel."
quote: In that case, yes, God's covenant with Noah was established with the entire human race.
quote: Well, but I showed the singular pronoun in "his heel" already. Actually I've been through this discussion times before. Unfortunately I'm not very good at keeping track of my sources. I probably have it somewhere in my Favorites, misfiled. Anyway, there is at least one place where God speaks to Abraham about his Seed that it is clear it is not only to the people who will come from him, though it is that too, but also to the Messiah the individual. If I find the reference I will post it.
quote: OK but Job wasn't Jewish. Is that a familiar Jewish way of talking? If so I stand corrected. I know that Jewish society is matrilineal, which is in fact how Jesus' lineage can be legitimated through His mother without a human father. But it was also patriARCHAL, not MATRIarchal. The Job passages about being justified, clean, righteous, are famous as background to the messianic passage in which Job declares that he knows that his Redeemer will come, and will stand upon the earth, that though he is unclean, born of a woman, yet he will be justified with God. Human beings born of a woman are born in Original Sin, but a Redeemer will come, also born of a woman, and be the Sacrifice that cleanses and redeems us from the bondage of sin, the Mediator between God and Man, which can only be accomplished by one who IS both God and Man. Job is saying he desperately needs such a Mediator as God is so wholly Other from him. He keeps pleading for a way to bring his case before God, and realizes that since he is merely a man and God is God that he can't do this. He needs a Mediator, he needs a Redeemer, and then he gives his statement of faith that this Savior WILL in fact come and he will see Him face to face. As far as Jesus' being born of a woman goes, if He was born with Original Sin from His mother, nevertheless He remained perfectly sinless all His life, obeying the Law to perfection, so that He could be the "Lamb without spot or blemish" to die in our place.
quote: Jesus was certainly bona fide Jewish.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I have to take a break until late tomorrow. I haven't been making any of this up. I'm simply trying to explain what Christian theology says and has said for 2000 years now.
I understood your question about what Jesus meant and gave you the orthodox Christian answer in that list of the prophecies I found. It's exactly what I've always been taught. It's standard Christian interpretation. Beyond that I've tried to answer the secondary questions it has raised, but basically your question has been answered: That's what Jesus was referring to about how He is spoken of in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms. It was His claim to be the Messiah. So really it is Jesus you are arguing with, not me. But if there is more I can answer tomorrow I will try again. So bye for now.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: That's what Jesus DID!! It's God's Law that condemns us, that we need to be saved FROM. Oh but I can't take the time right now to get into any more of this. I just HAD to answer that one point. Other points also beckon but I have to get some things done. Don't say anything interesting until tomorrow night!
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: I find it all extremely beautifully consistent myself.
quote: Yes, but all Christian Theology is is the codification of what is found in the scriptures.
quote: ???????
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
quote: Partly true, but the Bible is unique in that it has the kind of prophecy that really IS prophetic in the sense of predictive. And they were all done BEFORE the fact. Ciao for now.
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