The power of prayer: in action

I have the good fortune of working with some fundamentalist Christians. This provides me with the opportunity to study their day to day lives and the way they rationalise their experiences in light of their beliefs. It also gives me great examples of how Christians rationalise the success of prayer.One Christian colleague, recently lost her wallet in the streets of Sydney. She contacted all of her Christian friends who prayed for the wallet's return, and within a couple of days she had it back. Another impressive power of prayer anecdote. Hmmm.The above scenario raised three questions in my mind:1) Why did God let her lose her wallet in the first place (and couldn't she just make a coverall prayer asking that she never lose her wallet (or anything else) again)?2) Why did God only return the wallet after she endured the nightmare hassle of cancelling all of her credit cards?3) And more importantly, what is the statistical chance of recovering a wallet lost in the CBD of Sydney anyway?Well, fortuitously, the Sydney newspaper, The Daily Telegraph ran an experiment on this very subject and published the results on September 26th 2004. They left a wallet contaning ID, cards, and a small amount of money in various locations in Sydney CBD. The recovery rate of the wallet with it's contents intact was..... 80%.What about the life of an atheist? I too lose things. Recently I lost my expensive electronically security coded motorbike key twice on the extremely busy streets of Surfers Paradise, Australia. If you watched last weekends Indy, you'll know where this is!Without the power of prayer, I recovered it both times, quite miraculously. These examples would have also made fine Christian power of prayer anecdotes, had I been a believer.I witness absolutely no difference in the daily lives of my Christians colleagues and my own non-Christians life and that of my non-Christian friends. We are all subject to the whims of fortune and misfortune, and we are all certainly subject to the cynical mantra that "God" helps those who help themselves.I invite Christians to submit examples of the power of prayer. I also invite non-Chritians to submit examples of "good fortune" that may have made the basis for claims of the power of prayer, had you been a believer.This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 10-25-2004 10:51 PM

Hm. Faith and belief?

Here's an example of a prayer not answered, once again from my colleagues.Earlier this year, one of my Christian colleagues was enjoying the a relaxing Saturday at home, at the start of a long weekend. She works as our office manager, reponsible for the the infrastructure of company covering 11 floors in a high rise office, containing 550 staff. She spend most weekends in the office and had not had a weekend to herself for 8 weeks.In her words, she was at home on the couch, praising God for her respite and praying for a weekend of relaxation.Within the hour, security at our building called to report a broken water main on one of our higher floors had burst and was flooding down through five levels, damaging offices, equipment and important files. I don't believe she rested another second for the remainder of the long weekend.Her response? "God knew I was up for the challenge".What constitues evidences for the inefficacy of prayer? Anything?Is it little suprise that Christian elders preach that God's response to prayer comes in three forms: "Yes", "No" and "Later".

Phatboy wrote:

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Explain to me what the definition of these whims is? In other words, what is fortune?

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Thanks for replying. I thought there was a chance someone might jump on that expression.Random chance?The result of a series of contingencies too numerous and complex for us to calculate or anticipate. It is considered "fortune" if the result benefits us or makes us happy.I don't know whether these results are deterministic or random. I believe the consensus of quantum mechanics is that they are random; although cutting edge physics bewilders me even after I spent the last day wading through last months Scientific American.

I should have added: The result of a series of contingencies too numerous and complex for us to calculate or anticipate OR EFFECT.Of course doing really well in something like college examinations is a combination of "fortune" and one's own effort.Hence the phrase "God helps those who help themselves". A combination of selective thinking, confirmation bias, post-hoc reasoning AND hard work makes Christians believe that a supernatural force is irrefutable working within their lives.My eldest sibling praises his deity for his professional success. I put it down to an adeqaute level of intellect combined with the most ridiculous commitment to work I have ever seen.

riverat wrote:

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Well, I'm sure you thought to yourself it would be nice to have my wallet back. Since God can hear your thoughts, he answered and you got it back. He listens to all peoples prayers, not just believers.That is why you chose to label the find of your wallet miraculous

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This is an extraordinary explanation, river. So all good things that happen in anyone's life, atheist and theist alike, are due to God?Some of your Christian colleagues might beg to differ!Can God hear my thoughts (and prayers, if you like) about wanting to win the lotto?I have to be more careful about using religious terms. By miraculous I meant that finding my wallet (keys) actually was much less likely than recovering a wallet which contains identifying information for someone else to act upon.

Hello Purple,I am sorry to hear about your father.It is my experience that the concept of the healing power of prayer often exasperates the emotional turmoil surrounding serious illness, although religiosity can alleviate the grief.Glad to see you now probably appeal to avenues of assistance that may actually help.I hope things work out for you and your family.

riverat wrote:

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Schraf, I was only joking with the guy.

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Oops, I fell for it.

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I have had to learn a lot of things about prayer. One thing is, your prayers are always answered, you might not get the answer you expect though.

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This is what I was saying above: the standard church line is that God responds with Yes, No and Later. Which basically covers absolutely any contigency, from whatever cause, whether they be pixies, elves or random chance.The only results that actually evidence the efficacy of prayer are those that a outside statitical probability and natural causes. Got any examples of those to share?

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I can tell you that life is better when you pray. Try this, a listening prayer. It doesn't matter if you say you don't believe in him, because he is there anyway, and he will talk to you. Ask God where he wants you to go and pray to him, the first thought that pops in your mind will be the answer. Then go there, and ask God what he wants of you, then just listen. Pay close attention to your thoughts, because God is a perfect gentlmen, and he knocks softly, just let him in schraf.

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Avoid this stuff, peoples. It is probably always wise not to act on the inner voice! Of course if you are actually hearing voices and having conversations with unseen entities, it is time to seek medical intervention.

Thanks for your input, Buzsaw.Cars are intriguing things, and it is often easy to see why we become so attached to them and even assign them personalities!Your anecdote is facsinating. I can't quite counter it with perhaps as long a list of fortuitous circumstances in one event, but I'll recount three fortuitous vehicle experiences from my own atheistic life.Remember I don't pray so I have to rely of good ol' chance!1) I was riding my motorbike in heavy Brisbane city traffic a few years ago, down a four lane highway. My bike suddenly started spluttering and starting firing on less cylinders. I was running out of petrol in the centre lane on a mega busy highway! Around the very next corner I spied a petrol station... unfortunately on the other side of the road. The was a solid wall of cars coming the other way, and I wasn't meant to cross anyway as there were double lines. As my bike started slowing, I faced the prospect of grinding to a halt in the middle of the road, in heavy traffic at night, because I couldn't make my way over to the curb. At the last second the traffic coming the other way parted, I dashed across the double lines (naughty me) and with a now stopped engine rolled right up to the premium unleaded petrol pump.2)Years ago, I drove interstate by myself and the first indication I had that my car was in trouble was at 2.30am in the morning. I had been playing hours of very loud music and hadn't been able to hear the engine. When the tape finally finished, I heard my engine ratlling itself into oblivion. I stopped and looked: through some defect all of the sump oil had been forced through the rocker cover breather into the air cleaner box and out underneath the car. I was running with no oil. I didn't fancy the prospect of stopping in the middle of absolutely no-where in the middle of the night, so I hopped back in and limped it to the next town (another 55 kms away) hoping (dare I say praying!) the engine wouldn't seize. When I got there at 3am, the town was deserted. At the local petrol station there was a number for roadside assist: I called it, a cheery mechanic arrived, re-filled my oil, stopped up the breather tube and the car gave me great service for the next two years.Being a petrol head, I've got many others, but I'll try this short motorcycling one.3) I got cleaned up by a mini van while riding my motorbike once. What was amazing is how the van turned into me from head on and slammed into the motorbike swingarm (with enough force to crush the alloy).... and somehow managed to miss my leg which of course lies directly in front of the swingarm. How did the van turn into the rear side of my bike when we were approaching each other head on, and fail to collect my leg sticking out, on the way through?Aren't life's twists and turns absoutely amazing. For atheist and theist alike.

asciikerr wrote:

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God does indeed answer prayers, sometimes it takes a while and sometimes He answers with a "NO" but He does answer them.

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This is the logic I was talking about. So you are completely unable to document the power of prayer because God's responses are completely indistinguisble from the results any other religious person gets when he/she prays to any other deity or the results from random chance.This is a total cop out. Face it, you can't evidence prayer power and your statement is a deisgned to cover this up.

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Anything you don't pray for is simply left to chance...

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But prayer has the same result as chance. With chance, sometimes the "answer" is yes, no or later.

Mike wrote to Dpardo, referring to me: No I count the positives and the negatives. It's you guys that count the positives and disregard the negatives. I'm actually looking for evidence of your God, and have been for many years. You guys deny any evidence suggesting that your God does not exist. Heck you even stack the deck so that nothing can every evidence his non-existence!An objective assessment of the lives of theists vs atheists show absolutely no material difference. That is the proposition of my earlier posts.

Phatboy wrote: Thanks for this, and Riverat's candid insights into your minds. Absolutely horrifying.When you make the leap of faith and enter the realm of the imaginary and superstitious, you kiss reality goodbye an open up a pandoras box of mental conditions. I have argued for years that there is absolutely no distinction between religious beleif that results in visions and messages and schizophrenia.The only thing that (partially) confines your condition is the parameters of your delusion; your particular faith.Why the heck is it us atheists never see any of this stuff? I am so glad I live in this world and not the one inside your head.