Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
7 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The power of prayer: in action
Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 304 (152946)
10-25-2004 11:49 PM


I have the good fortune of working with some fundamentalist Christians. This provides me with the opportunity to study their day to day lives and the way they rationalise their experiences in light of their beliefs. It also gives me great examples of how Christians rationalise the success of prayer.
One Christian colleague, recently lost her wallet in the streets of Sydney. She contacted all of her Christian friends who prayed for the wallet's return, and within a couple of days she had it back. Another impressive power of prayer anecdote. Hmmm.
The above scenario raised three questions in my mind:
1) Why did God let her lose her wallet in the first place (and couldn't she just make a coverall prayer asking that she never lose her wallet (or anything else) again)?
2) Why did God only return the wallet after she endured the nightmare hassle of cancelling all of her credit cards?
3) And more importantly, what is the statistical chance of recovering a wallet lost in the CBD of Sydney anyway?
Well, fortuitously, the Sydney newspaper, The Daily Telegraph ran an experiment on this very subject and published the results on September 26th 2004. They left a wallet contaning ID, cards, and a small amount of money in various locations in Sydney CBD. The recovery rate of the wallet with it's contents intact was..... 80%.
What about the life of an atheist? I too lose things. Recently I lost my expensive electronically security coded motorbike key twice on the extremely busy streets of Surfers Paradise, Australia. If you watched last weekends Indy, you'll know where this is!
Without the power of prayer, I recovered it both times, quite miraculously. These examples would have also made fine Christian power of prayer anecdotes, had I been a believer.
I witness absolutely no difference in the daily lives of my Christians colleagues and my own non-Christians life and that of my non-Christian friends. We are all subject to the whims of fortune and misfortune, and we are all certainly subject to the cynical mantra that "God" helps those who help themselves.
I invite Christians to submit examples of the power of prayer. I also invite non-Chritians to submit examples of "good fortune" that may have made the basis for claims of the power of prayer, had you been a believer.
This message has been edited by Gilgamesh, 10-25-2004 10:51 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 10-25-2004 11:52 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 5 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-26-2004 12:55 AM Gilgamesh has not replied
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-26-2004 1:44 AM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 10-27-2004 1:40 PM Gilgamesh has replied
 Message 11 by Dan Carroll, posted 10-27-2004 3:45 PM Gilgamesh has not replied
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 10-28-2004 1:10 AM Gilgamesh has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 304 (152947)
10-25-2004 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
10-25-2004 11:49 PM


Were do you think this should go?

How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-25-2004 11:49 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-26-2004 12:22 AM AdminJar has not replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 304 (152954)
10-26-2004 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
10-25-2004 11:52 PM


Hm. Faith and belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 10-25-2004 11:52 PM AdminJar has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 304 (152956)
10-26-2004 12:24 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 304 (152961)
10-26-2004 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
10-25-2004 11:49 PM


Just to keep (my own) ball rolling
Here's an example of a prayer not answered, once again from my colleagues.
Earlier this year, one of my Christian colleagues was enjoying the a relaxing Saturday at home, at the start of a long weekend. She works as our office manager, reponsible for the the infrastructure of company covering 11 floors in a high rise office, containing 550 staff. She spend most weekends in the office and had not had a weekend to herself for 8 weeks.
In her words, she was at home on the couch, praising God for her respite and praying for a weekend of relaxation.
Within the hour, security at our building called to report a broken water main on one of our higher floors had burst and was flooding down through five levels, damaging offices, equipment and important files. I don't believe she rested another second for the remainder of the long weekend.
Her response? "God knew I was up for the challenge".
What constitues evidences for the inefficacy of prayer? Anything?
Is it little suprise that Christian elders preach that God's response to prayer comes in three forms: "Yes", "No" and "Later".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-25-2004 11:49 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by purpledawn, posted 10-27-2004 9:38 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 6 of 304 (152972)
10-26-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
10-25-2004 11:49 PM


gilgamesh writes:
We are all subject to the whims of fortune and misfortune,...
Explain to me what the definition of these whims is? In other words, what is fortune?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-25-2004 11:49 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-26-2004 2:19 AM Phat has not replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 304 (152977)
10-26-2004 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
10-26-2004 1:44 AM


Phatboy wrote:

Explain to me what the definition of these whims is? In other words, what is fortune?
Thanks for replying. I thought there was a chance someone might jump on that expression.
Random chance?
The result of a series of contingencies too numerous and complex for us to calculate or anticipate. It is considered "fortune" if the result benefits us or makes us happy.
I don't know whether these results are deterministic or random. I believe the consensus of quantum mechanics is that they are random; although cutting edge physics bewilders me even after I spent the last day wading through last months Scientific American.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Phat, posted 10-26-2004 1:44 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-26-2004 2:30 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 304 (152980)
10-26-2004 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Gilgamesh
10-26-2004 2:19 AM


I should have added: The result of a series of contingencies too numerous and complex for us to calculate or anticipate OR EFFECT.
Of course doing really well in something like college examinations is a combination of "fortune" and one's own effort.
Hence the phrase "God helps those who help themselves". A combination of selective thinking, confirmation bias, post-hoc reasoning AND hard work makes Christians believe that a supernatural force is irrefutable working within their lives.
My eldest sibling praises his deity for his professional success. I put it down to an adeqaute level of intellect combined with the most ridiculous commitment to work I have ever seen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-26-2004 2:19 AM Gilgamesh has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 9 of 304 (153395)
10-27-2004 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
10-25-2004 11:49 PM


Without the power of prayer, I recovered it both times, quite miraculously. These examples would have also made fine Christian power of prayer anecdotes, had I been a believer.
Well, I'm sure you thought to yourself it would be nice to have my wallet back. Since God can hear your thoughts, he answered and you got it back. He listens to all peoples prayers, not just believers.
That is why you chose to label the find of your wallet miraculous

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-25-2004 11:49 PM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by nator, posted 10-27-2004 10:56 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 20 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-28-2004 3:20 AM riVeRraT has replied

phat_and_dope 
Inactive Junior Member


Message 10 of 304 (153417)
10-27-2004 3:37 PM


Then what's the point?
So, if you don't have to be a believer and pray for god to hear you "prayers" then what's the point of believing at all? Obviously, god has no hard feelings about me being an aethiest if by your argument, he still answers my prayers regardless. Why go through the hassle of a church?

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 304 (153425)
10-27-2004 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Gilgamesh
10-25-2004 11:49 PM


One Christian colleague, recently lost her wallet in the streets of Sydney. She contacted all of her Christian friends who prayed for the wallet's return, and within a couple of days she had it back. Another impressive power of prayer anecdote.
Meanwhile...
It's good that God had the time to personally return her wallet, though. And that she saw the safe return of her wallet as a top priority which warranted the mass mobilization of her friends' prayers.

"If I had to write ten jokes about potholders, I don't think I could do it. But I could write ten jokes about Catholicism in the next twenty minutes. I guess I'm drawn to religion because I can be provocative without harming something people really care about, like their cars."
-George Meyer, Simpsons writer

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-25-2004 11:49 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

SoulSlay
Member (Idle past 5611 days)
Posts: 44
From: billy's puddle, BC
Joined: 10-26-2004


Message 12 of 304 (153434)
10-27-2004 4:10 PM


You have no idea what you are talking about
Phat_and_Dope, you could not be further from the truth. God does have a problem with you being atheist. He created you and wishes to have a relationship with you. It is because God loves all people that he answers prayers, and asks us to pray. You say 'if god answers my prayers anyway, why go to church?'. The point of practicing christianity (or any religion) is not so that God will answer your prayers. He cannot be bribed by you going to church. It is to help develop a greater relationship woth God. God loves all people and wants what is best for us, but man's sinful nature seperates us from him, which is why he sent Christ, to bridge the gap between man an God.

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by AdminAsgara, posted 10-27-2004 4:31 PM SoulSlay has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 13 of 304 (153441)
10-27-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by SoulSlay
10-27-2004 4:10 PM


Re: You have no idea what you are talking about
SoulSlay....you seem to be posting from the exact same IP address as Phat_and_Dope. Posting as more than one ID is against Forum Guidelines, carrying on a conversation with yourself is an issue better taken up with your therapist. I am stopping posting privileges for Phat_and_Dope. Issues with this can be addressed by starting a thread in Suggestions and Questions

AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by SoulSlay, posted 10-27-2004 4:10 PM SoulSlay has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 304 (153530)
10-27-2004 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Gilgamesh
10-26-2004 12:55 AM


Unanswered Prayer
1999 Father dying from cancer. Mother needs help on many levels. I live too far away to be consistent physical help. Did as much as possible. During this time we were devout praying Christians. Had the churches praying for my parents etc. My husband also decided it was time to move closer so we could be more help. Had church and friends praying for that one too.
Nov 2000 Father died. Now Mother is on her own.
2003 Gave up on praying and church. No added value from either and needed the time to help my mother.
2004 Husband is still looking for a job. I eat up a lot of miles and gas to help her manage her money, the house, and the farm. Now my husband's parents are getting to the stage of needing my help. They live in the same area as my mother.
My life has been much happier without the prayer and the church.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-26-2004 12:55 AM Gilgamesh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Gilgamesh, posted 10-28-2004 3:26 AM purpledawn has replied
 Message 134 by dpardo, posted 10-28-2004 5:15 PM purpledawn has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 304 (153544)
10-27-2004 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
10-27-2004 1:40 PM


quote:
Well, I'm sure you thought to yourself it would be nice to have my wallet back. Since God can hear your thoughts, he answered and you got it back. He listens to all peoples prayers, not just believers.
So, If God is listening to people's prayers and answering them, then is God to blame for not helping when he loses his key again, but for good this time?
Or, what if a believer constantly prays that he never loses his key, but then does. Does the believer figure that God wasn't listening?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 10-27-2004 1:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by riVeRraT, posted 10-27-2004 11:34 PM nator has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024