Evolution is NOT science: A challenge

Not that Scraff is doing any less than demolishing you, but some of those points just can't be ignored. Bandwagon approach. Your using a persuasion tactic we are taught to watch out for in 6th Grade DARE makes your arguement that much less convincing. Also, millions of people believe in Hinduism. Doesn't that mean something? Yes, and while we're at it let's ignore the fact that millions of people study evolution and still haven't found any kinks big enough to abandon the theory. You ask a question, then you don't want them to answer? Not much to be learned; lots of atheists were baptised early in life by the way. I think that statement makes the part about you contributing to science a load of horse plop.SCIENTISTS DONT HAVE PRECONCIEVED NOTIONS OR THEY'RE NOT SCIENTISTS.Okay? Please repeat that in your own words. [qs]2000 yearas from now, they will look back at a lot of this stuff we believe in and maybe laugh. So why should I base my life on it? [qs] Exact statement could be said about your religion.

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Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit. http://www.BadPreacher.5u.com (incomplete, but look anyway!)

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Who said anything about relativity?

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You did, when you brought up light and gravity.Didn't you figure that out when Crashfrog started talking about Relativity in response to you mentioning it?General Relativity Theory is needed to describe both the speed of light and Gravitational Theory.

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I said light and gravity, which everyone here in these forums claims to be just a theory.

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Yep, they are just theories, and there are actually several different competing theories of gravity. We actually don't understand gravity all that well, and we understand light only a little better than we understand gravity.The mechanisms of the Theory of Evolution are much, much better understood and is arguably the best supported theory in all of science.

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There are huge gaps between transforming states.

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Please define "transforming state".That is not a scientific term, so I don't understand what it means.

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Answer me this, why doesn't evolution ever go in reverse,

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If you mean, "does evolution ever lead to less complexity?", the answer is yes, it does.The ancient ancestors of horses used to have multiple toes, but modern horses have one toe.The ancestors of modern whales used to be land-dwelling, 4-legged cow-like animals, but modern whales are sea-faring mammals with fins instead of legs.Penguins and Ostriches have lost their ability to fly but can swim and run very well, respectively.

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and why haven't many things ever evolved? They remain in the same state for millions of years. Even when under natural pressure to change.

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Please provide a few examples of these many species that have not changed under environmental pressure.Let's start with 5.

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Yes I doubt it, and all doubt is serious.

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Yes very.

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You are indulging in a level of absurd denial which simply precludes rational discussion.Either that or you are playing silly word games.

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The very word center may not mean what it means in 2000 years anyway, once we discover other dimensions. Whos to say anything is anything really. Thats why your feelings are the only real thing.

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Let's test your hypothesis.Walk to the center of the nearest highway overpass.Jump off, but really feel that you aren't going to be subject to the Theory of Gravity.Really feel it within yourself that the laws of physics will not come into play and break your bones as you hit the pavement below.Stop with the post modern bullshit.

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Wouldn't that be along the lines of evidence?

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No.Personal, subjective "feelings within yourself" are not testable, objective, nor falsifiable, so they are not considered scientific evidence.They are anecdotes.

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Also wouldn't they see things right before their own eyes that could change them?

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Sure. Still doesn't make it evidence. It still is only anecdotal.

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Like a miracle? Like a vision? Like a specific answered prayer.

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What are the experimental prtocol used to objectively verify these miracles, visions, or answered prayers?Where can I examine the data, and have these events been repeated by disinterested observers and have they gotten the same results?

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If I said jump, and you did, wouldn't that be evidence that you jumped because I said so?

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Yes. Furthermore, you can film me jumping that you can show to anyone. We can repeat our demonstration to anyone.Your real-world, observable, repeatable, falsafiable physical example is unrelated to any of your other examples. The others are all personal, subjective, and "felt within oneself", so are therefore not evidence.

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Isn't that the same indepentant process that people go through who find God.

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No.People use their emotions and personal feelings and a lot of confirmation bias to find God, mostly.They do not conduct double blind experiments to find God, to my knowledge.

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So that when millions all come to the same conclusion doesn't that mean something.

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It means something, but it doesn't mean they're right.Millions of people believe that there were Iraquis among the 9-11 hijackers, but there weren't.

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Isn't that how scientists all reach the same conclusion?

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Nope.

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Lets just ignore the fact that millions of people believe in God.

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What?What does this have to do with if religious faith in God is the same as scientific inductive reasoning (scientific "faith")?

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You missed the point.

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Wow, snappy comeback, river rat.HOW did I miss the point. Explain yourself.

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That means nothing to me. Are you saved? Don't answer, its between you and God anyway.

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Yes, I can certainly tell that education means nothing to you.

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As far as science goes, I am a big fan of science.

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You aren't as far as I can tell.You don't understand science in the least.

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I even contribute to the last science that ameteurs can still give something to. I have measured varible stars, and search for objects that might endanger the earth using CCD technology.
But I take it for what its worth.

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How long do you think it has taken that starlight to reach us?Are they set into a firmament?Does the moon have it's own light, like the sun?

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I also don't live my life by it, but some people do, and that is the ultimate answer to the question that started this thread. You guys just love to go off topic.

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No, the topic is a challenge for you to show how Evolution is not science.So far, you have not come close to doing so by either arguing from a ridiculously irrational position or by playing semantic games.

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There are so many things that you and I will never know, how could we, we live in these acient times. 2000 yearas from now, they will look back at a lot of this stuff we believe in and maybe laugh. So why should I base my life on it?

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Who has ever advocated basing your life upon science?

Yes they do. Maybe you don't but a lot do. That is exactly what has been said to me before in other threads. Why else would someone stray off topic? Please point out to me where I said everyone feels that way.
Maybe you do have pre-conceived notions about the way I think. Agreed.

This is just what I'm talking about. How the hell can he be demolishing me? What a joke. The topic is about people believing in evolution so much that it becomes their religion. I have had people admit this to me first hand. How could anything the Scraff say change that?
What a joke, scraff is a rhain wanna-be, give me a break. Yes it does, and it should not be ignored. True, and it should not be ignored and still studied very hard.
Should I base my life belief's on it, I feel not. Are you talking about water baptism? Because that is different. If that where only true.
Please tell me there are no idiots in the world, and if they are none of them could be scientist. Not if God exists.
Science will change, thats a given, God will not change.

I agree with you there - Zeus will never change.

Maybe it's neede to describe why they are set at the speeds they are, but not to find out the atual speeds.
Someone could theorize the speed of light without knowing relativity, I believe it was done. Then it was corrected, and then corrected again.
Wait I'll go check.
Ok here:
http://www.is.wayne.edu/mnissani/a&s/light.htm
A history of what scientist thought and theorized the speed of light was and now is.It started before Christ and was thought that light was instantainious. In the 1600's Roemer came up with 140,000 miles per second, and then it was confirmed by another scientist. Now its 186,000 miles per second.All of this was done without the theory of relativity. WE even discovered now that the speed changes in different materials.
Other things still will be discovered about the speed of light.The problem is when you base your science on things that you don't know completely about, the science can come out wrong. As history shows. I can't believe people actually think that. There is so much more to learn. Don't kill yourself if one day we find out it's all wrong. ok? You know so much about the TOE, and you don't know about the gaps? I knew you would ask that.
Unfortunatly I can't answer that with any authority right now, I will get some better answers for you. But Crocodiles come to mind living through an ice age. Why wouldn't they evolve into a reptile that can live in cold climates.
I shouldn't even be talking right now, at least I know my place.

You did: For which the current, most accurate model is the Theory of General Relativity. Ergo, when you say "light and gravity", you're talking about relativity, which you said was "simple."So explain it. If relativity, which is the model of light and gravity, is so simple, you should have no trouble writing up the theory in 100 words. At the species level, perhaps. At higher taxa, the fossil record is very complete. I wouldn't describe that as "huge" gaps, but then, it depends what scale you're talking about. They would have had to be identical if evolution was not true; since all the bacteria in the experiment decended from a common ancestor, we know they must be clones (because bacteria don't have sex.)The only differences between individual bacteria can only be mutations. Which is evolution. What limit? Because time never goes backwards, and genomes have no memory. There's no "reverse" to go to. Define "same."Nothing remains in the "same" state for millions of years. Even in situations of no selective pressure, genetic drift causes change. Populations do not stay identical over time, they change.They may remain similar, but that's not "same".

Again, Evolution is not direction. It's not things getting better. It is just a history of what happened. Mutations go on all the time. There is no purpose to the mutations, no goal, they are just random, just chance.But the filter, conditions, the environment changes. Some of those random changes help a critter survive long enough to reproduce. Those critters live and have evolved. Some of the changes make it difficult for the critter to live long enough to reproduce, and they die off. Still evolution but leading to extinction. Well, so far we haven't found anything that did not evolve. One of the complex critters that has been around for a long time is the Nautalus. It's been around for hundreds of millions of years. Today, the two remaining species are still very much like those of 100 million years ago, but there are enough differences that as many as twenty-five different species have been identified.This message has been edited by jar, 08-17-2004 10:30 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Can you name one really smart medical researcher that explains the outcome of a study as being due to spiritual internvention? If not, then why should the rest of science have to include God in all of their studies?
  —Loudmouth

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What does that have to do with the topic?

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It has to do with everything. Answer my question. Is there a good medical researcher that includes references to supernatural deities in his findings? You claimed that all of the good medical researchers believe in God, but yet they seem to keep Him out of their work. Why can't evolutionists do the same?

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This is just what I'm talking about. How the hell can he be demolishing me? What a joke. The topic is about people believing in evolution so much that it becomes their religion.

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Umm, read the opening post one more time. It is a challenge to anti-evolutionists to show how the theory of evolution as portrayed by SCIENCE is in fact a religion. We are not talking about people who turn a scientific theory into a religion, but about a scientific theory that is only a religion. So, can you show that evolution is merely faith derived as other religions?

The trick to flying is not to go up, but throw yourself at the ground and miss.What does hitting the ground hard have to do with theory?
You stop with the BS. What about documented miracles?You feel gravity but can't feel it, so you test it by dropping something.
You feel God but you can't see him, so you test him by tithing, and he poors his blessings out on you. You can't explain it, just like gravity but its there. That doesn't any the less real than hitting the highway hard. DNA is scientific, but yet it is specific to the individual, just like the test you would have to perform to find God.
Not everyone would need the same test. Is everyones DNA the same?Who the heck are you question and try to come up with a test to see if the Creator of the universe is really there? Just look around you, he created everything, isn't that enough evidence?
Like Jar once said so beatifully, the best way to learn about God is to study what he created.
He spoke the universe into existance, you think you can come up with a test to find him lol.In leviticus it says tithe the FIRST 10% of your earnings and I will pour my belssings out on you, in this you can test me.You can test the Spirit.
You can study yourself, since you were created in his image.But you won't do any of those things since you think you evolved. You have had doubts your whole life, that the devil has put in your mind, and he owns you. He is keeping you from what is rightfully yours. You can see it right in front of your face, but you can't grasp it. Even since you were a child you thought you were smarter than him....Sorry, I don't know what came over me, I just had those thoughts enter my mind. Sorry. Lmao. In a way it does. Its the combination of sunlight with the wavelength of light from the materials of the moon reflecting.
We can see what the moon is made out of by subtracting sunlight from its reflection and analizing the light through a spectrograph. To clarify how I feel about evolution:
I feel it is a science.
I have seen people who treat it like a religion, but would never actually call it that. They believe in it instead of God. That is evidence in a sense, but does not prove that evolution is a religion.

You look so familiar in your picture, I hope I don't actually know you lol.
j/k

This forum is famous for turning one thing into another. With analogys like that, how do you manage to put your underwear on in the morning?
Thanks for telling me what I am talking about since you know. So is it really that bad of me to not accept it yet, because of those gaps? So the cloning process always 100% right?
Maybe bacteria aren't supposed to clone 100% accurate, like one part of their DNA is supposed to have a 50% chance of being flawed.Can you garruanty that each one of those bacteria were 100% exactly alike? Mutation is not evolution. I'm not talking about going back to a former state but to a simpler state. Why do things always evolve to more complex things? The ameba has changed?

That is not true, and I said smart ones believe in God.
I have heard a doctor say its in God's hands now, many times.
You've never heard a doctor say that?