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Author Topic:   Evolution is NOT science: A challenge
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 541 of 591 (136664)
08-24-2004 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by nator
08-24-2004 9:52 AM


Re: In comes the cavalry
However, do you think we should teach the best current explanations (theories) that we have that explain the evidence?
Most definatly, and other things as well.
And no I haven't witnessed any species changing into another species.
A bacteria is still just a bacteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by nator, posted 08-24-2004 9:52 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by nator, posted 08-25-2004 9:45 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 542 of 591 (136665)
08-24-2004 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by jar
08-24-2004 10:01 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
I don't but other people do.
At one point in my youth it was a good reason to not believe in God for me. So I can speak for myself as well.
Is that fact enough?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 10:01 AM jar has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 543 of 591 (136666)
08-24-2004 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 538 by nator
08-24-2004 10:18 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
Then you were taught poorly or you didn't retain what you were taught properly.
huh?
You can't see them, and its a theory, it was very clear what they were teaching. I am not saying if they exist or they don't, can you egt that?
Anyway my points have been made on this thread, I didn't come in here to start arguing about evolution and all of science. I love science, even if I don't understand it completely, but I probably understand it better than 97% of the rest of America.
But of me its not where I put my faith, which is what I have said since day one in this forum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by nator, posted 08-24-2004 10:18 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by nator, posted 08-25-2004 9:52 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 551 by nator, posted 08-25-2004 10:04 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 554 by Loudmouth, posted 08-25-2004 1:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 544 of 591 (136670)
08-24-2004 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by nator
08-24-2004 10:23 AM


Re: Faith in the unseen
Show me a christian who deserves it, and prove that he/she deserves it.
Be careful when you try to use other people as examples, because you really won't know the truth about them. It would be between them and God.
Innocent children can suffer from the sins of their ancestors. Sin is passed down, we are born into sin. Its not the sin, but the sin that dwells within. Do you realize how hard it is to stop sinning? The bible speaks of this. But if you break the chain your generations will be bleessed for years to come. I see this happening, in others, as well as my own family. I am working really hard to break the years of sin from my ancestors. It is only with the help of the Holy Spirit and prayers of others that can get me through it. It is the most difficult thing I have ever tried to do.
But the point at which I am at with my relationship with God, it is something that I am enjoying to do, and I give all the glory to him.
It became very apparent to me how and why Jesus died for our sins. you can also study history and see the change once you understand it.
Unfortunatly the devil weaves a very tangled web, and it seems to me that the smarter you are the more weaves you have to go through to find the truth. This why I have said before that "stupid", or "not so smart" people have a quality that I admire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by nator, posted 08-24-2004 10:23 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by nator, posted 08-25-2004 10:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 545 of 591 (136675)
08-25-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by jar
08-24-2004 10:44 AM


Re: Faith healing
No jar, I don't mean that at all. I am not against medical care at all.
I believe prayer can cure what medicine can't, or sometimes cure you before you ever have to go to a doctor.
I also don't believe in Christian scientists.
This all goes back to what being a true christian is all about. Unfortunatly, like I told schraff, that the devil weaves a tangled web, and to me the people in that story seem like they were caught up in it.
I mean you can reality check your own heart and know that God would have never wanted that, its obvious to me and you.
But it wasn't God fault that it happened, it was the result of stupidity, or deception in their religious teachings on the parents.
So that brings me to the point where I can see a lot of very smart people here in this forum. They seem to readily reconize what is from God and what is not. But instead of trying to set the world straight, they choose to say that religion must be no good, because of stories like the one you told, and history.
I cry out to all of you who know in your hearts what and who God must be. I know you guys know because he is in your hearts. So if you know who God is, don't keep him in your little box, he doesn't belong there. Go change the world, and make it a better place through the power of God. I think most people in this forum would make better christains than 80% of most christians out there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by jar, posted 08-24-2004 10:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by jar, posted 08-25-2004 12:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 546 of 591 (136680)
08-25-2004 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by riVeRraT
08-25-2004 12:09 AM


Back towards the topic.
Is Evolution Science?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by riVeRraT, posted 08-25-2004 12:09 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by riVeRraT, posted 08-25-2004 6:46 AM jar has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 547 of 591 (136730)
08-25-2004 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by jar
08-25-2004 12:15 AM


Re: Back towards the topic.
Only when one treats it as science. Thats what it should be.
I see where your going with this. Here's a quote from the scientology home page:
A maxim in Scientology is that only those things which one finds true for himself are true. In Scientology one learns to think for himself — it is a voyage of self-discovery.
Official Church of Scientology: What is Scientology?
If compared to evolution, with that way of thinking, anything is possible.
I am not saying that evolution=religion. I am also sure that any creationalist is not saying that in the literal sense. Its a metaphor. People often say things like "he watches football every Sunday religiously", but we all know that watching football is not a religion. But if it starts replacing religion, then there is a concern on behalf of the church.
I don't know about other people, but I believe in God, and what I have found is so beatiful, that I only wish to share it with others. I do not not want to force it down anybodys throat either, thats not how you find God, but you do need to hear about it once and a while, otherwise you would have a hard time finding him in todays society. If TOE somehow blocks that, and it does contribute to that, then that is when TOE starts replacing religion.
I personally do not call TOE a religion, but if someone uses the idea that we evolved and were not created it to replace religion, and not believe in God, then I claim that is where they put there faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by jar, posted 08-25-2004 12:15 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by CK, posted 08-25-2004 8:11 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 553 by Loudmouth, posted 08-25-2004 1:43 PM riVeRraT has replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 548 of 591 (136733)
08-25-2004 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 547 by riVeRraT
08-25-2004 6:46 AM


Re: Back towards the topic.
In Scientology one learns to think for himself — it is a voyage of self-discovery.
That's the best gag I've seen in a while - Scientology is the best brain-washing cult of the lot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by riVeRraT, posted 08-25-2004 6:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 7:09 AM CK has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 549 of 591 (136741)
08-25-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 11:42 PM


Re: In comes the cavalry
quote:
And no I haven't witnessed any species changing into another species.
A bacteria is still just a bacteria.
1) What is the barrier that prevents many many small changes in a species from becoming large changes over a long time span?
2) What are your falsifications of the entire fossil record?
3) How do you explain the fact that species which show greater morphological similarity also show greater genetic similarity, if common descent with modification is false?
However, do you think we should teach the best current explanations (theories) that we have that explain the evidence?
quote:
Most definatly, and other things as well.
Excellent! Then you agree that we should teach the ToE, because it is the best current scientific explanation of the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:42 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 7:38 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 550 of 591 (136746)
08-25-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 11:47 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
I love science, even if I don't understand it completely, but I probably understand it better than 97% of the rest of America.
No, you don't love science.
You have a very strange idea of what science is and how it works.
Remember, you have pretty much been told this by actual scientists on this board!
You have squandered your time here by working desperately to maintain your misconceptions that have been pointed out to you by actual professional scientists instead of learning and correcting them.
quote:
But of me its not where I put my faith, which is what I have said since day one in this forum.
It's not where I put my faith either.
This thread is about if the ToE, as scientists use and develop it, is religious in nature.
So far, you have not shown this to be the case.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-25-2004 08:53 AM
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-25-2004 08:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 557 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 7:51 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 551 of 591 (136748)
08-25-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 11:47 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
You can't see them, and its a theory,
Right.
However, as I explained to you in my last message, the fact that you cannot literally "see" some kinds of scientific evidence has no bearing whatsoever on if the explanation for the evidence qualifies as a theory or not.
You just have to be able to detect it in some way. It's called "inference", and it's how the vast majority of science works.
A Neuroscientist can't "see" the firing of neurons in a brain. Does that mean that the inference that brains work by the firing of neurons should be doubted?
Do you often just ignore what people write?
quote:
it was very clear what they were teaching. I am not saying if they exist or they don't, can you egt that?
So, do you think that the evidence for the Atomic Theory of Matter is strong enough for us to teach it in science class, or not?
Yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 8:00 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 552 of 591 (136749)
08-25-2004 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 11:58 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
Unfortunatly the devil weaves a very tangled web, and it seems to me that the smarter you are the more weaves you have to go through to find the truth. This why I have said before that "stupid", or "not so smart" people have a quality that I admire.
Wow, that explains a lot.
Your God likes 'em dumb.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:58 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 8:05 AM nator has replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 553 of 591 (136797)
08-25-2004 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by riVeRraT
08-25-2004 6:46 AM


Re: Back towards the topic.
quote:
I am not saying that evolution=religion. I am also sure that any creationalist is not saying that in the literal sense. Its a metaphor.
Au contraire, mon frer. They mean it quite literally. Their contention is that evolution is not backed by any evidence whatsoever. Instead, evolution is just a faulty interpretation to support athiesm. What they seem to ignore is the vast numbers of christians who study and support evolution as a scientific theory that has no bearing on their spiritual lives. The fact of the matter is that evolution is supported by volumes of evidence without including or excluding any deity. At this time, it is the most accurate theory that explains the biodiversity that we observe today. Do you agree with this last sentence?
quote:
I don't know about other people, but I believe in God, and what I have found is so beatiful, that I only wish to share it with others. I do not not want to force it down anybodys throat either, thats not how you find God, but you do need to hear about it once and a while, otherwise you would have a hard time finding him in todays society. If TOE somehow blocks that, and it does contribute to that, then that is when TOE starts replacing religion.
Who is doing the "blocking"? Is it scientists who accurately report their data or is it christians that require other christians to abandon scientific theories in order to become one of them? I think it is creationists that turn evolution into a religion, not scientists.
Given the fact that many christians have no problem with evolution and christianity, it would seem that it is creationists who are creating the conflict between science and religion.
quote:
I personally do not call TOE a religion, but if someone uses the idea that we evolved and were not created it to replace religion, and not believe in God, then I claim that is where they put there faith.
That doesn't make TOE a religion no more than the theory of gravity is a religion if someone uses it to deny the existence of God. Using a naturalistically derived theory to deny the existence of the supernatural is a logically fallacious argument, and has no bearing on the accuracy of the theory. I will agree with you that it is wrong to use evoltution to deny that there is a God, or any other scientific theory to deny the existence of any deity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by riVeRraT, posted 08-25-2004 6:46 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 8:17 AM Loudmouth has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 554 of 591 (136798)
08-25-2004 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by riVeRraT
08-24-2004 11:47 PM


Re: Faith in the unseen
quote:
I love science, even if I don't understand it completely, but I probably understand it better than 97% of the rest of America.
[joke]Understanding science better than 97% of America really isn't saying much.[/joke]
I don't mean this as an insult, but you may understand science but you don't understand how science works. That is, you might know quite a bit about physiology, biochemistry, etc. but from what I have read you don't understand how the scientific method works. This is why a lot of scientists cringe when creationist theories such as Walt Brown's Hydroplate Theory are trotted out. They reak of poor scientific methodology. Almost all creationist theories are ad hoc. That is, they are theories that have no evidencial support and are constructed in order to keep the main theory (which also lacks evidence) from being falsified. For instance (as an example, not for discussion), what evidence led Walt Brown to hypothesize that the tectonic plates moved as he proposes? The answer is no evidence whatsoever. What he constructed was a theory that kept a world wide flood from being falsified by inserting a story that only exists in his head. This is not how science works. For a theory to be supported it must be derived from evidence instead of being derived from an attempt to stop another theory from being falsified.
In your own posts, you state that scientists should investigate untestable mechanisms. In other words, scientists should insert the supernatural and supernatural mechanisms in their work in an attempt to be "fair". However, this is far from being fair in a scientific sense. For a scientific theory to be "fair" the evidence has to be testable by everyone through a common methodology. If I use spiritual experiences such as voices from God or alien abductions to support my theories this is inherently unfair because no one else can check my evidence.
If you think science should include the supernatural perhaps you could lay out an argument that would result in a reliable theory that is testable by everyone irregardless of religious convictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by riVeRraT, posted 08-24-2004 11:47 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by riVeRraT, posted 08-26-2004 8:35 AM Loudmouth has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 555 of 591 (136975)
08-26-2004 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by CK
08-25-2004 8:11 AM


Re: Back towards the topic.
Thats exactly my point. Its really not what Jesus wanted at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by CK, posted 08-25-2004 8:11 AM CK has not replied

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