Hi,
Sorry about the delayed reply, but there was a lot to reply to and I am inviolved on other discussions as well.
Hey Brian, I was reading your responses to the origional question, and I had to respond because many of your questions I believe I have answers to.
I am sure you have, whether they are plausible or reasonable is another matter.
Whether you prefer to take them with salt and an open mind, is up to you.
I always read everything with an open mind, but by glancing at some of your answers I think I am going to have to buy a huge amount of salt!
It sounds like you're pretty bored and aggitated with the whole "Christian" thing,
Well, mostly I am just teasing people, but my main intention is to try and motivate people into thinking for themselves, and to try thinking logically.
But I really do believe that Christianity is a particularly silly faith.
but it is a very relivant suggestion for truth, and why we are the way we are, and how we got here.
One thing that the Bible is relevant for is as a source for understanding the philosophy of some ancient societies. As I have said before, the Fall of Mankind in Christianity is simply a philosophical explanation for the existence of evil and suffering in the world. The two creation myths are simply philosophies, explanations for questions with no definite answers, the creation myths and the Fall are philosophies, they are not historical realities.
I myself was born and raised in a Christian home,
Ditto.
and I did go through a time when I questioned everything I believed in
Ditto.
and looked to science for facts,
Personally, since I was and still am interested in the truth about the Bible, I turned to the humanities, after all the Bible is literature so it makes sense to enter a relevant academic discipline.
and I questioned that perhaps God didn't exist and we are all alone.
Does the idea of being alone frighten you. But, what difference does it make to your life whether there is a God or not.
But through my questions, and the books I read, the people I talked to and the experiences I had personally with God Himself, have been so amazing that never have I felt a beauty so wonderful before in my life, and it gets better everyday.
Great, a mirror of my own life really, because I feel exactly the same, only without God. The books I have studied, the essays, dissertations and conference papers I have written, the people I talk to and the intellectual freedom that comes from rejecting an ancient Hebrew mythological character is very liberating. So, both our live's are fulfilled, but one of us is fooling themselves, and I know which one it is.
I just have one queston for the above quote. You say "self-fulfilling prophecy" but isn't your prophecy "self-fulfilling" also? Your opinion in saying that Jesus is false and that God isn't real is built on your own preassumptions and is therefore also a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Not at all, my conclusion is based on objective research, research that any fair minded person really should accept. It is remarkably obvious that Jesus was no messiah, the Bible itself makes that pretty clear. I am also very open minded and willing to listen to any evidence that someone may have. This gives me an advantage over a great many Christians who are so narrow minded and concieted that they will not listen to or consider anyone else's opinion. Look at Prophex's statement about not finding God. He has the temerity to ask why you haven't found God yet, and he doesn't even realise how ignorant this is. Then we have Faith who won't even consider any external evidence that contradicts the Bible, tell me those two approach a subject objectively. This is the difference, it really makes no difference to my life whether God exists or not, but to Christians obviously they will see God behind everything.
Christians as a whole did not invent reasons to believe in God.
Well, the invented reasons for believing in a god were made up long before Christianity entered the scene, but Christians certainly invented reasons to believe in Jesus' divinity.
We have a Bible that has never been proven true
I wouldn't agree with this, there's quite a lot of the Bible that has been shown to be true, the rule of Omri for example, or the rule of Herod, although I would agree that a great deal of the Bible has not been proven, and probably never will.
and has also never been scientifically proven false.
I take it you haven't really studied the Bible alongside ancient near eastern history or archaeology, as the Bible has been shown to be inaccurate regarding many issues, as has been shown many times at this forum, there was no unified military conquest of Canaan. Also, regarding science, the Bible has been shown to be incorrect in many instances. For example, science has proven that there was no Flood, that the Earth is not the centre of the solar system, and that humans have been around far longer than the 6000years or so.
If I may presume to say, you yourself are also inventing reasons to believe there is not a God, so you are caught in the same trap.
The difference is, I have no reason TO believe in God, and the default is not theism. So, whenever anyone comes up with some real evidence for the existence of god, and not the tired old chestnuts that have been refuted a ”Brazillion’ times, then maybe I will show an interest.
It always makes me wonder as well, (if I may generalize) why Christianty has been the one "religion" or belief that has been the most persecuted.
Forgive me for saying so but this is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard. If you care to read some history you would discover that no faith has persecuted others as much as Christianity has. It is a simple historical fact that Christianity spread through the persecution of others, how many cultures has Christianity wiped off the face of the Earth? The pages of history are soaked in blood spilled by Christians, in living memory we have 6 million Jews slaughtered for rejecting Jesus the false messiah.
("...and you will suffer persecution...Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life" -Revelation 2:10NIV) Is it that man has deliberatly put an emnity between himself in God?
No, the Fall is not a reality, it is philosophical tale.
Why is that?
Is this rhetorical.
"In what way was life a little more simple?"
Life never is simple, if you think about it (or if you think at all), but if you know God in a personal relationship and as your Lord and Savior, the simplicity in your life becomes so real. You'd have to believe in God to have that kind of simplicity and peace (far be it for me to make you understand - only God could do that)
How do you know how others feel, it is very insulting to suggest that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe doesn't have peace of mind or a very real simple life.
Read the Bible the entire way through (with an open mind; without preconceived assumptions and opinions),
What makes you think that I haven't already done this?
disregard the relious fanatics and then you can have the authority to fully grasp was he's talking about and dispute for or against it.
I know what he is talking about, and it is simply an expression of his preconceptions. Sure it is easy to feel how wonderful God is when viewing an idyllic scene, but why not see God behind a scene of poverty and heart ache? In his mind God can only do good and all good things about this world are from God, but why ignore God's 'slaughtering of the innocents' in Egypt, or God instructing Joshua to murder the inhabitants of Jericho?
For one thing, the Bible is the most historically accurate in terms of history and events,
Is the most historically accurate what? You really haven't studied very much if you think that the entire Bible is historically accurate. Tell you what, since you are confident that the Bible is historically accurate, I'll open a new thread about history in the Bible and we can work through the text chapter by chapter until we find a person, or event, that can be supported by external evidence and we will see just how far into the text we need to go before we find anything that is 'historically accurate'. I would wager that we would probably be into Kings before we get a result.
and it has been made from some of the oldest manuscripts.
This doesn't make sense. You surely don't mean that Bible mss are some of the world's oldest texts, so what do you mean?
Scientists even use it to find out historical data.
Would you happen to have an example to support this?
It has never been proven wrong.
Yes it has, many times; you just haven't been reading books of a decent academic standard.
If the Old Testiment has never been proven wrong, and the teachings in it are so true to life, why not hold some faith to the accrucy of the New Testiment?
You can stop using the word 'if' now, because the Old Testament has been proven wrong many times, have a look around the forum here, many members here have shown errors in the OT on numerous occasions. So, by your logic, since the Old Testament has been proven wrong, we should not trust the New Testament.
What I see in you by your response here is ignorance, and bitterness. Neither of which will get you anywhere. Yes, there is pain in the world, and yes there is suffering, and children dying, but that is the world in which humans have commited themselves to living.
Oh I see, we are to blame for God being so incompetent, we designed the world to have tsunamis and earthquakes, how silly we are.
When the first sin was committed, the world then fell and became subject to destruction, evil, horrors of a dark life, and ultimiatly death.
Your evidence to support this would be?
The reason that things are so horribe in this world is becuase of man seperating himslf from God by the sin that he committs. ("...but it(world)hates me because I testify that what it does is evil." John 7:7NIV) Therefore, the world is going to be a place of suffering. It's out own fault.
Easy to say when you aren't sitting there starving watching your children die off one by one. But, think about this question, is it just that I should go to jail because my great grandfather robbed a bank?
God doesn't like it either, in fact if you read the Bible, and read parts of the Old Testiment you would undertand a little of God's character and know that He is a compassionate God and hates to see his people suffer.
I think you are being very selective here. There are literally hundreds of verses in th Old Testament that highlight God's barbarism.
He didn't like to punish the people of the Old Testiment.
How do you know this?
But it has to be that way, b/c of man's sin.
No, it has to be that way because God wanted it that way.
For example, how best do you learn a lesson? By it being told to you, or by reaping the consequences? Most of the time, the latter is the best method used. God is purely Holy and righteous, and for us to be with Him in prefection and health, we have to be like him in Perfection. But it is impossible by our own ability. God is comasstonate b/c He sent His only son, and ultmatily Himself, to die a horrible death and rise again, as a sacrifice for all sins.What greater love is there?
Let me see if I have this correct. In order for it to be possible for people to have their sins forgiven God sent God to be killed as sacrificed to God? Don't you thnk that sounds a little bit silly. As for Jesus death, what's the big deal, He is God and by definition a God cannot die, it is hardly a sacrifice if you know you are an eternal being.
These poor children who die everyday at least have the reasurance that they will have new bodies once in heaven.
Unless they accept the gospel they will burn in hell. Tell me, why should a Hindu child go to heaven?
After all we are not supposed to be people of the world, b/c as children of God we are not of the world. The world is something that we have to overcome.
For a group who keep rejecting the earthly world, your lot don't half go
out your way to interact with it. Why don't Christians who want to reject the world just bugger off somewhere and leave the rest of us in peace?
If what you ask for is for God to right the world of suffering then the world should right itself of sin. There should be more Chrstians to go out onto the mission feilds and help those that they can,
But, didn't you say that you are to reject the earthly world, why not reject it and keep yourself to yourself?
I also think the world has had enough of Christian missionaries, there has been enough 'raping' of the world's cultures by Christianity, the peoples of Africa and South America have had their cultures decimated by Christianity.
b/c evidently from what you have said there aren't enough of us.
There are far too many of you in my opinion, there's also far too many Muslims and Hindus and other theist groups. The sooner these groups get therapy the safer the world will be for us sane folk.
What are you yourself doing to help these poor people of the world who suffer?
Quite a bit, but it isn't in my nature to blow my own trumpet. But, what could any individual do that would come anywhere near what God could do?
God could stop all suffering with a single thought, but chooses not to because some woman ate a fruit against His wishes! What a spoiled brat God is, and you want others to worship Him? What has He done that makes Him worthy of worship
Faith also comes with action, so does love come with obedience. God cannot make us help the world. but He does need us.
Why would He need us when He can do anything He wants with a single thought?
The reason for the downfalls of society and corruption of life has been our own fault.
If you read the Eden creation myth, you should conclude that it is actually God's fault. He was stupid enough to put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of Eden, when even a moron would place it beyond the reach of humans. Unless God wanted mankind to Fall, which appears to be the most logical conclusion when the entire myth is considered.
You can't blame God for everything.
I don't blame Him for anything, He is nothing more than a fairytale character.
If the world were a perfect place and God kept the word from pain and suffering, we would not have free will.
But we don't have free will.
("'I do. I am angry enough to die.' But he lord said, 'You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it, or make it grow.'" Jonah 4:10NIV)
You have probably picked the worst example in the entire Bible to try and support the free will excuse, because God negates Jonah's free will! Tell me, what did Jonah choose to do when God told him to go to Nineveh? Did he choose to go to Nineveh, or did he choose to go in the opposite direction?
If Christ was the only way to eterntal life, I think I would at least be wise and choose that path and get to death and find out it's false than to take it as Truth and die, then realize there is a God and then have to go to Hell b/c of unbelief.
What you have described is known as Pacal's wager, an argument that has serious flaws. I have two big problems with Pascal's wager, firstly, it assumes that God is a moron. You say to follow Christ just in case He is God, this suggests that God doesn't know that you are only following Christ because Christianity might just happen to be true. To truly be a follower of Christ you have to know in your heart that He is your Lord and Saviour. Don't you think that God would know that you were following Christ on the off chance that there is an afterlife as outlined in Christian theology?
The second problem is that I could folllw Christ and some other god could condemn me for following a lie. What if Allah is the one true God, what would happen to me if I took your advice?
I don't think he's wasting his time. He's making a wise choice, if he values his life at all.
Well, since you have fell for the same flawed faith as he, I would expect you to agree with him. But, he is very young and has been indoctrinated for a while, maybe he will grow out of it.
Frankly, I believe that every person on this earth has seen the prescense of God and of His existence. One, by the moral code that was placed on ever person's heart. Two, by the creation that surrounds us all as testimony to His ausome creation and beauty.
Well, just because you think these two beliefs are experienced by everyone does that mean that they actually are?
( "The LORD has made his salvation known and revealed his righteousness to the nations." -psalm 98:2NIV) God will judge every man acording to what he has seen and heard. If someone was raised in an Afrcian Tribal village, and never even heard the word Jesus, then God as the most fair of all judges, and will take that into account.
You have taken the Psalm out of context.
Therefore, it is safe to say that Chrisians will be judged moe hashly, b/c of what they already know, and what they do with the information they have receievd. God will not condemen a man simply b/c he has never had the chance to hear of the gospel, or of how to obtain salvation. ("Forgive and act; deal with each man according to all he does, since you know his heart (for you alone know the hearts of all men..." - 1 Kings 8:39NIV)
How can someone not have heard the Good News?
Also, not to argue, but why is the God of the bible the only "stupid" one?
Where did I say that Yahweh was the only stupid God? We are discussing the God of the Bible, but I am sure the gods of other cultures may be stupid as well, however, it is difficult to imagine any god bein as stupid as Yahweh.
It seems as though your comment was a little predjudiced and immature.
Do you know what the word 'prejudiced' means? I don't think that you do, so look it up and then see ifthequestin is relevent or not.
In what way is the God of the Bible "stupid?" What do you mean by "supid?"
Where do you want me to start! There are so many examples of Yahweh's stupidity that it is difficult to narrow it down. You could start by recognising what an arse He made of creation, He couldnt even create a perfect world. He even acknowledges that He messed things up when he decided to start again and washed away His previous effort with a Flood! The Flood itself is another exampe of Yahweh's stupidity, why go through all the nonsense of having Noah build an Ark, then have all the animals make their way to Noah's backyard when He could have simpy wiped out all life with a single thought!
I just don't see how you can argue against Christians when you don't know God personally, you don't have all of the information, and you fail to even have some sort of courtesy to christian beliefs.
How can I know God prsonally when He doesn't exist? I once believed that I knew God personally, but I realised that I was just fooling myself. I realised that if I really tried, I could make anything seem real, no matter how silly the concept.
I actually do show courtesy to Christians , almost every day when I think about it. But this is a discussion board where I have the right to express my own beliefs.
Also, there are not that many Christians at this site, Jar, Phat, Trixie, Mr. X-Nihili, Truthlover, and maybe one or two others, so I am not 'offending' many people. There are a few here who think they are Christians, but they aren't really, they don't really understand what Christianity is.
For one thing, I believe that the TV show you speak of is irrelivant simply b/c it is fiction, and has not actually occured in real life.
Most of the Bible is fiction and didn't occur in real life.
It's made up,
As is most of Jesus' life story.
therefore irrelivent. Can we deal with reality here?
If we were dealing with reality then we wouldn't be having ths conversation.
What do you mean by beautiful?
Probably the same as you, since you used the word earlier in your post.
How can life be beautiful when you have no hope for an eternal life?
Quite easily, and I am afraid that, according to Christianity, we all have eternal life whether you believe in Christ or not, it is where we spend eternity that is in question.
How can it be beautfil when you have no purpose but to fullfill you're own meaningless goals?
Why are my goals meaningless, how freakin arrogant can a person be! Why is my life, and that of contless others meaningless because we don't believe that ancient Hebrew campfire stories are true? Do we have to be brain dead morons and follow your faith in order to have meaning in or lives? What meaningful goal do you have in yor life, apart from keeping this inane faith alive?
For, since you say you don't believe in this God, then afterlife for you is nothing and therefore life itself for you is meaningless.
Is it? How is it you know more about other peoples' lives than they do? Try avoiding fundy websites that trot out all these ignorant soundbites and try thinking for yourself now and again.
Man has never settled for that from my experiece and observations. How do you?
You must have a very limited experience of life then. How do I settle for there not being an afterlife? Easy really, since there isn't one the why contempate it? An afterlife is a belief, it isn't a realty, I have more imprtant things to do than waste time on something that I don't believe exists.
"How good is it to believe in a Messiah?"
Wonderful question. The answer is amazing. Incredibly good. A life so full of peace an love, and is unlke anything. When I let God in my heart as a presonal decision a peace washed over me; life become so simple and I saw life for what it really is.
This is exactly how if felt when I realised that there is no God, and that Jesus, if he did exist, really wasn't all that special, not even His birth was unique. But, acknowledging that there is no God is very liberating, it gives you a sense of responsibility and duty, you don't sit around waiting for a fantasy figure to do anything.
I saw the workings of Satan and it trully felt like my eyes were opened.
Satan is a great excuse for explaining God's shortcomings. People who swallow this very poor excuse seem to forget two things, firstly, Satan cannot do anything without God's permission, and secondly, God could splatter Satan if He wanted too. So, why does God allow Satan to exist, and why does He give Satan permission to do evil deeds?
Now, I have dedicated my life to getting closer to this Love of God and becoming one with Him in perfect communion, to serve and obey Him.
And you say that my life is meaningless! This sounds more like some sort of psychological condition that you are suffering from. You want to unite with a fairytale character, why choose Yahweh instead of the Wizard of Oz or Sauron? It is such a sad waste of life, but I suppose it is yours to waste.
On the mission feild I hope to do God's work in helping those poor,
and oppressed
Why do God's work for Him, is He incapable of doing it Himself?
and revealing to others this beauty of savation in God that I have found.
Why? Why do you feel the urge to force others to listen to your experiences? Of course in helping the poor and oppressed you have the perfect audience to exploit. A bit like the missionaries who only teach people to read so that they can read the Bible. Why not just help people because they need help? Why exploit the situation?
I have never known anything so beautful. I can understand why you don't understand becase you are blind. Blind to the beauty of the Truth, b/c you are unwilling to accept it.
I think it would be more accurate to say I am sane rather than blind. So, what is this Truth that I am blind to, is it the fact that the Bible proves that Jesus could not have been the messiah, or that the sun doesn't orbit the earth?
You want harsh reality.
Ass opposed to comfortable fantasy?
You want somthing to feel, to see, and to touch to beleive. That is why it says, "blessed are those who believe and have not seen."
You do know why it says this don't you? It is because there is nothing to see, you are blessed because believing in Christ requires a degree of gullibility that no rational person could allow themselves to sink to. Jesus did nothing, he fulfilled no messianic prophecies, he died a criminal's death, and he failed to keep every promise he made.
"What is it you wished to be saved from?"
Death. Destruction. Hell. Pain. Darkness. Confusion. I want to be saved from this world. And I have been. Through the Cross of Christ.
Let me guess, you are either an ex-alcoholic, ex-drug addict, or you did something very bad during your life.
"...childrens have been brainwashed by well meaning Christians. They pollute...with fantasies...before the child has entered the abstarct thinking stage..."
I was born and raised as a Christan. And I did enter the "abstract" thinking stage. I think every child does, but some more visibly than others. I questioned everything. And I came to realize that Christianity and God is the only thing that makes any sense.
But it doesn't make sense, Christianity is a seriously flawed faith, nothing about it makes sense. A God sending Himself to Earth so God can be a sacrifice to God because God is an ego-centric tyrant does not make sense. Jesus, as the messiah of the Old testament does not make sense, especially when so many OT references prove he wasn't.
The bible is the only thing that has the answers to everything.
What is the capital of France? Bet you won't get that in the Bible.
I don't believe in God and Chrisianity b/c it sounds good
That's because it really doesn't sound good.
I believe in Jesus Christ a my Savior and God as the Creator of the world b/c it makes sense.
It doesn't make sense though!
And ultimatly b/c of the Love and patience God has shown me personally.
The old self delusion. You can convince yourself anything is true if you try hard enough.
Are peope realy truly fulfilled?
Yes, so why don't you believe them?
Yet they go through life trying to find more highs moving through homes and jobs, and hobbies, and friends, drugs, and other highs.
You know, this is the complete opposite of what my Buddhists friends do. So, I fail to see how your generalisations make any sense.
Always looking for something to do, alwasy looking for someone to share life with, b/c no none wants to die alone.
Again, this is nothing like my Buddhist friends, who don't think they 'die' at the end of this life.
People everywhere are constantly going from high to high, yet none of it ever lasts very long. People just keep going from one thing to another, never really fully satisfied - never really fully fulfilled.
I think you need to get out more often, meet more people, because your view of the world is extremely limited.
Whatever it is that you are looking for, I pray that you find it.
Thanks, but I have already found it.
Brian.
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