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Author
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Topic: Original Sin
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 78 of 103 (274781)
01-01-2006 7:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 77 by ramoss
01-01-2006 6:34 PM
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Jewish view of Fall/OS
Now, the interpetation of Genesis 1 from the conservative and reform Jews is that God set up man on purpose, so he could learn the consequnces of his actions. Without knowledge of good and evil, there could be no free will, and ability to CHOOSE good, to lead a more sanctified life to become closer to God. This is what I have understood to be the case too, even from the orthodox point of view. In fact I have an orthodox Jewish internet friend I pepper with such questions, and this is pretty much the answer he has given me -- and he usually supplies orthodox Jewish websites for reference. So, Randman, do you have some references to Jewish sources that believe in some version of the Fall or OS? This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 07:17 PM This message has been edited by Faith, 01-01-2006 07:18 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 77 by ramoss, posted 01-01-2006 6:34 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 81 of 103 (274926)
01-02-2006 4:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 80 by randman
01-02-2006 3:17 AM
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Re: more internet stuff
OK, those are good examples, thanks. SOME kind of Fall is hinted at there. I wonder what Ramoss will say about it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by randman, posted 01-02-2006 3:17 AM | | randman has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Doctrine of Original Sin
Jews believe that Adam's sin affected mankind, not that every person is born sinful, which is what is implied by the "Doctrine of Original Sin." Clearly there is a difference between the conceptions, but if "Adam's sin affected mankind" how could it affect us except through inheritance? That something changed in the basic human package with Adam's sin does seem to be implied, whether Jewish theology draws this conclusion or not. And if something in our inherited makeup changed with Adam's sin, and this was a "lower status" isn't this status a status involving our moral capacities, and if so, isn't the doctrine of original sin pretty much implicit here?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2006 8:29 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 88 of 103 (275163)
01-02-2006 10:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by ramoss
01-02-2006 6:39 PM
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Re: Doctrine of Original Sin
The problem is that we're not talking about something like money that we inherit externally, but something that is IN us, that gets passed on from generation to generation in our very nature. This change in human moral standing has to be inherited genetically or the idea that we are changed is meaningless.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2006 6:39 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Doctrine of Original Sin
After Adam sinned, supposedly evil increased so there was now an imbalance (51/49). So now it is supposedly more difficult for man to overcome his evil inclination, not impossible, but more difficult. Sin, as ramoss explained, means to miss the mark. You can't inherit sin or a mistake. You may inherit the propensity to sin, but that doesn't mean you will sin. I don't see the lower status as dealing with moral capacities, since Adam still made a wrong choice at the higher status. I see it as losing ground. He has to work harder to reach perfection. But the point is that we DO genetically inherit this changed propensity to sin, which is all the doctrine of original sin is saying too.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 85 by purpledawn, posted 01-02-2006 7:30 PM | | purpledawn has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 90 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2006 10:52 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Doctrine of Original Sin
The problem is that we're not talking about something like money that we inherit externally, but something that is IN us, that gets passed on from generation to generation in our very nature. This change in human moral standing has to be inherited genetically or the idea that we are changed is meaningless.
why is it meaningless? because you can't conseave of the fall not changing us somehow without it being genetic? From all that I've read about it, it says we were at a level of closeness to god then adam messed up, and god lowered mans status from one with god to trying to get back there I mean on many websites and books thats what they say that man was at a level where god directly communicated with man in person, then adam sinned and now our job is to get back to that level, or higher The point is that this condition of lowered status becomes the condition of all Adam's descendants. How does that happen except through genetic inheritance? This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 01:35 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by ReverendDG, posted 01-03-2006 12:24 AM | | ReverendDG has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: Doctrine of Original Sin
OK, I see your point, you are talking about something that originates in God, not in humanity.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by ReverendDG, posted 01-03-2006 2:51 AM | | ReverendDG has not replied |
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