Christmas Star Explained

Because that's what the text says. Remember, they weren't warned until after they had been to Bethlehem. I'm going by what's in the text. Dopes usually take a long time to figure that out. Some never do. (Hint, hint.) Irrelevant. Houses and stables would have been very close, if not adjoined.(And if you're going to nitpick about words, you should be eager to call a "star' a "star", too.) Nobody has made that assumption but you, assuming that God goes about in a flying junkheap.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Oh really now? Can you show us where you infer that from??? The chapter says, not that they went to Bethlehem, but..."..there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,.."Now, there is no reason to assume that they followed the king's orders. What did they follow, according to the actual text???? The star!!!!
According to a closer look at the other parts of the bible, we can clarify what is unknown about this chapter. The secret is, that they did not go to the manger, to Bethlehem at all. God's star did not guide them there, of course, because they went somewhere to a house, and a child, not a newborn.The dream to skedaddle was after this, and this was not possibly Bethlehem. If you insist on ignoring the rest of the bible, and look only at this text, it must remain unknown to you. You must assume that the star and the possessed king were guiding the same direction!!! Which, in itself is preposterous. Oh, I get it. But no worries, I am here to try and help you get some kind of a grip on this. There is always hope. I am, in the ancient sense. Look it up sometime, and see how this starship Sceptre was a star, in the old sense of the word. There were houses not far from the manger, but the timeframe of what we do know, as I posted, rules out any chance of Jesus and His family being anywhere near there. I never assumed that, I read it in the bible. Not my idea at all. I have a very limited imagination, and never would have thunk it. This pre present universe sapphire throne to the which calendars are set as we speak, does not make Him a liar, as would the Sceptre prophesy failing, or someone thinking a modern day sense star would guide people, like GPS, to a house!!!This thread has touched on three positions of the ship. Way way up, and coming down to Israel, so the wise men could see it. Hovering over His son's birth. And coming in low enough to guide mere men to a house. Also, if the shepherds had an encounter, it was low, so low, they heard the voices of those on board, and were bathed in the GREAT light of it shining down. This ship did not depart till Shiloh came.Come to think of it, what better place to transport the ark to heaven for safekeeping, than in the Owner's wheels!!!! Amazing!I kid you not.Oh, and He likely came by to pick up His son, for a ride home, after earth school was out as well!!!Edited by simple, : No reason given.

This really doesn't have to be so difficult if you just read the text.First:

quote:

---

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem

---

Then:

quote:

---

Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

---

Then:

quote:

---

Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshiped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Mat 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

---

The timeline is really very straight forward. There's no need for you to misunderstand it. There's no reason to assume anything else. The story doesn't say, "But they decided on a whim to go somewhere else," or "The star led them to a completely different place." It says they were on their way to Bethlehem and then they found Jesus. It doesn't say that at all. If the word "house" is so all-fired important, why assume they went to a different city, miles away in the opposite direction instead of to the nearest house fifty feet away? You haven't shown anything in the rest of the Bible that has anything whatsoever to do with the wise men. All you're doing with the rest of the Bible is making the wild-assed assumption that every shiny object is the same thing. Well, let's look at the timeframe again, then.

quote:

---

Luk 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
Luk 2:16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

---

Two points here:

1. The shepherds found Jesus in the manger.
   ​
2. All the fancy blinkenlights were gone by that time.

And what did the shepherds do?

quote:

---

Luk 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

---

They did exactly what we would expect. They told everybody they knew about the amazing things they saw that night - friends, relatives, strangers they met on the street.Now, it's only a few miles from Bethlehem to Jerusalem. How long would it be before some commuter brought the news to Jerusalem that "unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord"? A few hours?And yet,

quote:

---

Mat 2:3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

---

He heard it from the wise men, not from the Herod Intelligence Agency, as you've been touting. How could it be that the news was widely known in Bethlehem but unknown in Jerusalem, unless the timeline was very short?Just by reading the text (and by including both accounts of the nativity), the simplest interpretation is that the wise men were probably in Bethlehem within hours of Jesus' birth. It certainly seems impossible that the news could have failed to reach Jerusalem in the month that Mary, Joseph and Jesus were in Bethlehem. I have my doubts about that. But my policy is that when somebody claims to be an honest fool instead of a smart crook, I take his word for it.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Hi Ringo,I haven't read this whole thread and just had one question about what simple is saying. I thought you could easily answer it for me.He's saying that the magi didn't go to Bethleham. That they didn't go see Jesus in the manger.Well, what is he proposing that they actually did then?

I don't think reading the thread would help much with following simple's thought processes. I think he's suggesting that the Holy Family was already back in Nazareth before the wise men caught up with them. That's possible, and it's probably the least nonsensical of his ideas, but I've detailed why I don't think it's likely.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Yeah, I'd much rather just ask you, if you don't mind. So what? I mean, what does that change in his opinion?He said is a "Big Secret" or whatever. Just what is he getting at?My guess: nothing

Either the nitpicking is an attempt to divert us from his ridiculous-premise-of-the-month that everything is a flying saucer... or he's really as scatter-brained as he pretends to be.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

I think he proposes that this was maybe two years, or some period of time after Jesus was born. Herod didn't know about it, so sent him to where the prophesy said the Messiah would be born, I propose that God's Christmas star guided them to somewhere else, where Jesus was a little child, living in a house.
Didn't He grow up in Nazareth?? So, unless there is some biblical evidence to the contrary, why not have the star guide them to there??Edited by simple, : No reason given.

What!? There's no Biblical evidence to the contrary that monkeys can fly out of my butt, so why not? Why do you propose that? All that is extra-Biblical, though. Why add stuff to the story that isn't there? Again, why propose that?What's your motive? Well, read the quotes that Ringo provided. Its pretty obvious to me that the magi was there right after the birth, and that they went to Bethleham not Nazareth.There has to be some reason that you want the story to be the way you propose it. I baffled as to why. Care to tell me?

The timeline is not locked in as little a box as you seem to want to think"Herod reigned, as this same author observes, thirty seven years; and according to Dr. Lightfoot's calculation, Christ was born in the thirty fifth year of his reign, and in the thirty first of Augustus Caesar,"
Matthew 2 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgJesus was born in Herod's reign, yes. It doesn't say how long these kings or wise men took to get there, to Jerusalem.Travel was slow, you know. If I was starting with, say, three wise men, one in China, one in Persia, and one in India, how long do you think it would take to get to Israel?? Think about it. I see a star come down and rest in the east, and, have reason to think it is very important. I make hasty arrangements to travel, secure the horses, or camel I need, buy supplies, research the routes, etc etc. I will be gone a long time, as it took months to travel that distance then, each way. Oh, yes, I forgot, I also need to go Christmas shopping first, and grab some gold, or frankincense, etc.Now, when they get to Jerusalem, they see an obviously suspicious and ignorant king that tells them to go a certain way. They head out, heaven knows if they would have went that way anyhow, if they distrusted the guy.They then see the star again, which seems to have disappeared for a while, because they were very happy to see it. Then it actually guides them somewhere, to a house.Knowing that certain things had to affect the timeline, as I mentioned in another post, by the time these guys arrive on the scene, it was no longer a manger scene.This chapter alone does not give a timeline, only a sequence of events!! To pinpoint times more we need the rest of the bible. Yes it does say that they followed the star!!! Nowhere does it begin to say that the star led where kingy suggested!!! What, do you think God should have stepped in and said to the king there
'King, My son is already born, and living far from Bethlehem, go to such and such an address, and have a nice little chat with Him, will you?!!'
Get serious. He waited till the wise men were clear of the murderous madman, and had that star guide them to the very house, no messing around, better than GPS.You simply ride along on little surface assumptions, that really conflict with the other parts of the bible, and an intelligent God.They went to Bethlehem to begin with why???? Not to live, so why would they still be there?? They couldn't even find a flipping Inn there when it was an emergency!!! No reason to assume they stayed there.They were living in a house, and about to get a message from God to flee to Egypt, from that mad king! They would need money for such a trip. Why do you think that God had the wise men bring treasures?? No accident, all this. Of course this was long before the wise men arrived. Yet, we can infer that they were either on their way, or getting ready for their long slow journey, because it sounds like the Christmas Star was already on the scene.The shepherds were no longer interested in sitting in a quiet field stargazing at this point! Look at the evidence here
"Luke 2:16 And they came with haste, and found Mary, and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. "The ship after this encounter likely either went back up to hover, as a star, or some such business. Of course it didn't follow the shepherds, running as fast as they could to Bethlehem, and blind them with some great light. No, only those flying objects that had the throne and the Almighty recorded in them. Objects that, if up at a high elevation would precisely be called a star then. Indeed. The H.I.A. were not inside the loop! God knew that there were enemies in the palace, and already had plans for a regime change in the works. How long before word of a Muslim Mandi this year, that arises gets to the C'I.A., and passed on to Washington? It may make it to the National Enquirer, but supernatural claims are not always the prime concern or worldly kings. Many prefer to not have their fiddling interrupted. Especially if God is right there on the scene, watching out over Shiloh. Then you may have went where Herod suggested. Good thing God chose other wise men.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Have you a bible case for the Christmas Star, and timeline, or not? Otherwise you may as well make whatever silly claim you like. [qs] Why do you propose that? All that is extra-Biblical, though. Why add stuff to the story that isn't there?[/quote] No, it is because of the timeframe needed from the bible, as I outlined in a link several posts back. This is actually even fairly common knowledge. Look into it. There are many reasons why they could not have shown up at the manger. I listed one link, no doubt there are thousands available on the net. The motive is that it is simple bible knowledge that it could not have happened. Where you been?? Already dealt with that. The magi could not have been anywhere near the time and place, not even close. What city it was we don't know, but the times we do have some real idea about from the bible.You ask why the point is relative. The topic is the Christmas star, and what it could have been, since it couldn't really be a comet, or normal star as we think of them. It is established that God has wheels, and I propose that His ship, or whatever you want to call it fits the bill best for the Christmas star.The guidance of the Father, in His starship, from the palace, was the side issue that we touched on.

That's completely irrelevant. They could have seen the sign and started on their way twenty-eight years before Jesus was born. We're only dealing with the timeline from when they arrived in Jerusalem. No, that's not what they saw at all. Remember, they were warned in a dream, after they had met Jesus, to go home another way. When they met Herod, there is no indication that they didn't trust him. The two chapters in Matthew and Luke do give a timeline, which I have laid out in some detail. Nowhere does it say it didn't. You can't assume that the wise men rode giraffes just because the text doesn't specifically rule it out. Read what the text says and draw your conclusions from that. Don't try to shoehorn everything into one demented notion of a UFO. Because the prophecy said that was where the new king would be born. No, it couldn't have been a "long time", as I have explained. If you're going to reconcile the two stories, the wise men must have left Jerusalem before the shepherds' news arrived from Bethlehem.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

Not really, because as they got to Jerusalem, they said that the SAW the star, and came there. One assumes that the star was at the birth of Jesus, not 28 years before. Also. it seems funny that more than one wise man would take 28 years to get there. No. They came since the star rose, after they saw it.It is reasonable to allow a year, or even 2, with the times involved in long distance travel, and preparation, etc. Well, yes, that is what they saw. People that are as far advanced in depravity as Herod had to have been do stick out to many decent people. Especially God's people. I do not doubt they had some real concerns.
But, the point remains, that even if they were spiritually insensitive, and daft, they followed the star to the house. Not Herod's directions.
Then, they continued the pattern, and followed heaven's directions far away from Herod. As did the family of Jesus. What is evidenced all over the place here is an operation ordered, and coordinated from heaven. Absolutely!

quote:

---

The two chapters in Matthew and Luke do give a timeline, which I have laid out in some detail.

---

No, they don't. you assumed stuff that is at odds with the bible." "8. How old was Jesus when the magi visited Him?The Biblical data to guide us in answering this is as follows. (1) We know from Luke's Gospel (2:21) that Jesus was circumcised at 8 days old; (2) We also know from Luke 2:22-24, that when the 40 days of Mary's "uncleanness" had passed (see Leviticus 12:1ff.), they presented Jesus, their first born son in the temple in Jerusalem, according to God's Law (Exodus 13:2ff.; Numbers 3:13, 8:17. (3) Herod asked the magi when they had first seen the star (Matthew 2:7) and on this basis later killed all of the male children in Bethlehem, age two and under (Matthew 2:16). In addition to this, there is (4), that the magi came during the reign of King Herod, whom we know died in 4 BC;On this basis we can lay out the following with a fair amount of certainty. Jesus was between 41 days and 2 years old when the magi arrived. The magi had to have come after Jesus' presentation in the temple, that is, after Jesus was 40 days old. Why? Because, Matthew's Gospel tells us that after the magi departed, an angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt, since Herod would seek to kill Jesus. According to Scripture, Joseph left that very night and went to Egypt (2:13-15). This would have left no time or opportunity for the presentation in the temple, which we know happened.Is the fact that Herod killed all Bethlehem boys age 2 and under evidence that Jesus was 2? Not necessarily. First, the murder of these little ones does not necessarily mean that the magi told him that the star had appeared two years before. They could have told him a lesser number and ruthless Herod might have chosen two years in order to "take no chances." Second, if the magi did tell him that the star had appeared two years before, this also does not necessarily mean that Jesus was 2. The star could have appeared before Jesus was born, giving the magi advanced notice."
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/magifaq.htmlSo, your timeline seems to have missed a few things. The margin within we have to work within is 2 1/2 months to 2 years. That rules out the manger. Wrong, we need to read other verses as well, because there is not enough info otherwise. Some assumptions are of more worth, biblically, than others as well. I think it is safe to assume that the Father didn't want Herod to know squat. I meant Israel. I don't think the wise men went to Bethlehem at all. They came to Israel, because they had seen the star. You make it sound like the shepherds had a hot line to the palace. No. There were not even any phones then. You assume that a few shepherds telling an excited tale of seeing a great light in the heavens, and hearing voices, and seeing a baby, warranted an emergency cabinet meeting. No. Especially when the Almighty is right on the scene, and His angels, and He was actively hindering Herod, helping people escape him with dreams etc!!Your mistake in arriving at an impossible timeline biblically stems from omitting God from the picture. That would leave one with a hopelessly skewed picture of what really went down.The UFO of the Almighty, the mobile sapphire throne fits the bill for the Christmas star like nothing else can. It fits the bible timeline perfectly. It fits the ancient prophesies perfectly. It fits the wise men seeing the star, (as it came down to Israel from on high) then as it hovered in Israel, it fits being a star. Then, at lower elevations, it fits the great light, and voices for the shepherds, as well as the guidance system from the palace to the house of Jesus.It not only BEST fits the bible descriptions, but it fits all science, history, and other evidences available.
A comet does not fit either, nor does a star in the modern sense. Nor a supernova, etc.If one believes in a real God, and a true bible, I think this is the only idea on the Christmas star I have seen so far that does fit all.

Then one assumes wrong. There is nothing in the text to indicate how long before the birth of Jesus the sign appeared. Now you're contradicting yourself. That's what I've been saying all along: they came after they saw the star. Your lack of doubt is irrelevant. There is nothing in the text to suggest that the wise men "discerned" any depravity in Herod. As far as the text is concerned, they trusted him and went where he told them. Why else did they have to be warned (after they met Jesus) not to go back to Herod? It's your source that's making unwarranted assumptions. It doesn't say how long after the wise men's visit Joseph got his warning.

quote:

---

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

---

Since Matthew didn't bother to mention the trip to Jerusalem at all, it's presumptuous to insist that it must have been before the wise men's visit. If Herod chose a much larger number to "take no chances", that would make Jesus much younger when the slaughter of the innocents happened, not older. There's also the time lag that I already mentioned: Herod waited for the wise men to come back, finally gave up on them and decided what to do and ordered the slaughter. He must have been certain that Jesus was much less than two years old.Besides, the assumption that Herod was incompetent nullifies the miraculous aspect of Jesus' rescue from the slaughter.Neither you nor your source have dealt at all with the central point of my timeline: the fact that the news of Jesus' birth was widely known in Bethlehem on "Christmas Day" but unknown in Jerusalem when the wise men arrived. How long would it take for news of Jesus' birth to reach Jerusalem? If the news arrived before the wise men, why would Herod and the people of Jerusalem become interested only after they heard it again from the wise men? Nonsense. You can't use verses from outside the two nativity stories to deny what the stories actualy say. Of course. Assumptions based on what's in the two gospels are worth more, Biblically, than wild-assed speculations based on misinterpretations of other passages. Then why didn't He warn the wise men in a dream not to go to Herod at all? Why didn't He warn the shepherds not to spread the news? Your opinion is irrelevant. A straightforward reading of the text says they did. I'm just pointing out what the text says:

quote:

---

Luk 2:17 And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

---

It's ridiculous to suggest that "abroad" doesn't include the city of Jerusalem, only a few miles away. Y'see, you just shoot yourself in the foot and show off your inability to understand the part of the timeline that is explicit in the text: There is no hint of hindrance by God until after the wise men has visited Jesus. He simply did not prevent them from going to Herod in the first place.Incidentally, that reinforces my position: There was no point in God preventing the wise men from telling Herod about Jesus, because He knew the news would travel to Jerusalem quickly anyway. Stretching the timeline just makes God look like an incompetent fool who didn't bother to protect his own Son until the last minute.

---

“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

What passage is this from?