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Author | Topic: Christmas Star Explained | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Vacate writes:
I'm just surprised other saner christians haven't stepped in to question his beliefs yet. Or hes delusional. Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
simple writes:
Personally, I'm not even on the defensive. I don't know why so many people took your bait. You can conquer whatever crackpot territory you want. Have at it. It's all yours. They may know enough of the bible to realize they better not dare. Besides, maybe a few would enjoy seeing you nice folks on the defensive for a change. Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Ringo writes:
Even I can answer this one. Why was Herod (and all Jerusalem with him) "troubled" when the wise men asked about the star? If they had already seen it, why weren't they already troubled? What changed when the wise men came? They all saw the star, but none of them thought of the implication. The wise men specifically asked Herod where the new king of Israel was. This lit up a light in Herod's head. The better question in this is if they were wise men, why the hell did they ask the regional king where the new king was? Seriously, we are talking about a time when brothers killed brothers to be kings. Why on Earth would the "wise men" tell the king that a new king had just been born? Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Ringo writes:
I think we should take "all" as a metaphore for a lot of people here. Ringo, people are generally weary of political change, especially during times of absolute authoritarian. You never know what will happen when a new king come to power.
But why would "all Jerusalem" be troubled? Herod had a throne to lose but surely some of the ordinary peons would be glad to see him go, not troubled.
Well, a peasant's life was simple. Get in the morning to work. Eat. Sleep with your wife. Breed. Ok, may be I'm not doing them enough justice, but I want to point out that their lives were probably stable enough that they didn't want to risk a change in government.
They assumed that he had wise men of his own who would have told him about the sign.
Well, yeah, and we'd assume that Hitler had wise men with him that could have told him that the Normandy Beach landing was the real deal and not a diversion. You can't use coulda/woulda/shoulda to evaluate history... myth. By your logic, I could point out that little red riding hood should have recognized the big bad wolf right away instead of asking about the eyes, teeth, ears, etc.
But if Herod already knew about it, why did he ask the wise men when it appeared?
Because nobody paid attention? I don't know. Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Ringo writes:
I have, many times.
Just read the story, SimpleTaz. Everybody saw the "star", but nobody paid any attention until some guys from the East mentioned it? Then they got troubled?
Again, I don't know. It's a fable. We could sit here all night nitpicking the hell out of this myth or we could recognize it for what it is.
My logic is that the wise men were open with Herod because they assumed He already knew about Jesus' birth. While we're at it, why would they assume that the new king was a usurper and not Herod's own son?
For one thing, I can guess that they didn't think the new king was Herod's own son for one very good reason: They asked Herod where the new king was instead of asking to see him. Let's look at it this way. Suppose that the news has just reached your ears that my wife had just given birth to a new born baby and the baby was healthy. It took you a month to get here to congratulate me. You finally got to my house. You see me sitting there with my wife. You then proceed to ask me "could you give me driving directions so I could go visit your new born baby?" What a stupid question! The baby is upstairs sleeping, you dumbass.
You're missing my logic.
I suppose I am.
You can take the "star" as a metaphor for Kris Kristofferson while you're at it. I'm just taking what the text says, and there's simply no indication that anybody saw the "star" except the wise men. (Before or after, for that matter.)
Again, nitpick the myth all you want. But for a moment, consider this. What if the author of the myth exaggerated the brightness of the star? What if it was just a new star in heaven? Not everybody in the ancient world paid attention to the heavens. The few that did, like the wise men, followed it. Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Ringo writes:
And I've been saying that you also need to read the story while considering the way people wrote down things in the ancient world. So you agree that most of the people never saw any "star"? That's what I've been saying. Helen was the most beautiful woman on Earth and everybody knew this. Paris was the most beautiful man on Earth and everybody knew this. Troy was the most blessed city on Earth and everyone knew this. Are we honestly going to point out that the regular Hittite peasant knew who the hell Helen or Paris was or what the City of Troy looked like? Or are we going to read it for what it was, a myth that probably was based partly on a real event and place with lots of exaggerations? All I'm saying is what if it was a very faint but newly appeared "star" and the wise men happenned to be the only ones that noticed it? Let's look at the story passage by passage.
quote:Again, did everybody know who the bitch Helen was or the dumbass Paris was? And yet, everybody supposedly knew that these were the two most beautiful people in the world. Why nitpick the "all Jerusalem with him" part? quote:Herod didn't ask the Magi to tell him where the star was because he couldn't see it. He asked them when it appeared. Let me ask you something. If tonight a new star appears in the sky would YOU notice it by yourself or would you only notice it after someone else (probably who observes the heavens everynight) pointed it out to you?
quote:Ok... so we know it's impossible for any star to be directly on any one particular location on Earth. Still, I see this as nothing more than an exaggeration, if not total fabrication. quote:What do you mean? Without embellishment, the Illiad would be just another war story... if that. If there was such an event as the virgin birth and if there was such an event as the wise men visiting the newborn Jesus, I'd imagine that it would be a really boring story if told accordingly. Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3321 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Ok, I don't even know why I'm arguing with you anymore, considering the fact that we're both practically saying the same thing.
Peace! Disclaimer: Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style. He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!
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