Christmas Star Explained

No. Would you link me to that post please so I don't have to dig for it. I haven't read this thread. I just saw you say something about a "Big Secret" and I was wondering what you were talking about. I'd rather not go through and read the whole thread. Why not? I mean, God does have magic powers, doesn't he? It was probably a magic star.Why would God need a spaceship?

No idea, you made it up, you tell us.
My guess is that it a butchered, doctored, twisted opinion of something I said in another thread. About how there was a spiritual level not that high up, so that one could have built a tower to it.

The post was this bit."8. How old was Jesus when the magi visited Him?The Biblical data to guide us in answering this is as follows. (1) We know from Luke's Gospel (2:21) that Jesus was circumcised at 8 days old; (2) We also know from Luke 2:22-24, that when the 40 days of Mary's "uncleanness" had passed (see Leviticus 12:1ff.), they presented Jesus, their first born son in the temple in Jerusalem, according to God's Law (Exodus 13:2ff.; Numbers 3:13, 8:17. (3) Herod asked the magi when they had first seen the star (Matthew 2:7) and on this basis later killed all of the male children in Bethlehem, age two and under (Matthew 2:16). In addition to this, there is (4), that the magi came during the reign of King Herod, whom we know died in 4 BC;On this basis we can lay out the following with a fair amount of certainty. Jesus was between 41 days and 2 years old when the magi arrived. The magi had to have come after Jesus' presentation in the temple, that is, after Jesus was 40 days old. Why? Because, Matthew's Gospel tells us that after the magi departed, an angel warned Joseph to flee to Egypt, since Herod would seek to kill Jesus. According to Scripture, Joseph left that very night and went to Egypt (2:13-15). This would have left no time or opportunity for the presentation in the temple, which we know happened.Is the fact that Herod killed all Bethlehem boys age 2 and under evidence that Jesus was 2? Not necessarily. First, the murder of these little ones does not necessarily mean that the magi told him that the star had appeared two years before. They could have told him a lesser number and ruthless Herod might have chosen two years in order to "take no chances." Second, if the magi did tell him that the star had appeared two years before, this also does not necessarily mean that Jesus was 2. The star could have appeared before Jesus was born, giving the magi advanced notice."
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/magifaq.htmlThe universe we live in has rules, and laws. Stars are a part of that universe, and abide by those laws. His mobile throne, and angels are not. They are spiritual, therefore not subject to the limitations of our present, temporary universe.Besides, if I waved a magic wand over a star, and had it dance around, leading wise men to a street address, the world would know it. It would be recorded in ancient records. It wasn't. Therefore a localized event, and light in the sky best explains it.

I didn't make it up. I was referencing message 46

Get your stories straight. If someone could build a tower to Heaven thats a mere 2-3000 feet up (as you say) then I have not butchered your words. If I have twisted what you have said then feel free to explain in better wording.I could dredge up all your garbage once again if you would like. How many times do I have to repeat the same quotes before you will admit to the consequences of what you have said?Your UFO is still higher than the Heaven of the times (by your words). If you don't have an issue with this, so be it. If you would rather have a thread made specifically to explain why your low Heaven and high flying God Scepters are not logically contradictory I would be glad to take part. Until then I have not butchered, doctored, nor twisted the direct quotes that you have made between two threads.

Certainly not from the Bible! I got this from mind of simple.A place to begin could be Message 45 of this thread. Also take a look at the three quotes that I pulled from the tower of babel thread here: Message 36

There is also no reason at all to assume your great imagined time of 28 years.2:7 - Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared."Verse 7. Privily. Secretly, privately. He did this to ascertain the time when Jesus was born.Diligently. Accurately; exactly. He took pains to learn the precise time that the star appeared. He did this because he naturally concluded that the star appeared just at the time of his birth, and he wished to know precisely how old the child was."
Matthew 2 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org"a. Determined from them what time the star appeared: Because Herod commanded that all boys two and younger be killed in the area, we can assume that the wise men first saw the star, on the night Jesus was born, a year or so previously. Herod ordered the execution of children two and under just to be safe."
David Guzik's Commentary - StudyLight.orgIf a star SIGNIFIES the birth of a king, it is reasonable to assume when we see the star, the king is born. No, depends on what you mean. They saw a star, so came to Israel. They again saw it there, where it led them to the child. That doesn't matter, if you think they realized the king was weird or not. What matters is that they followed the star to Jesus! You can't deny it. Thy followed God, in other words, who obviously was onto Herod long before Herod was even born!!! There was a prophesy about his murdering the children, and weeping, etc. "Matthew 2:13And when they were departed .
That is immediately, or as soon as they were gone, or in a very little time after, probably the same night, "
Matthew 2 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgRemember also that Herod had diligently quizzed the wise men as to the time the star was born, and GOD knew there was real and present danger. To assume He dilly dallied around for weeks or more is absurd. Elementary, really. The king could not have taken too long on this important matter, to catch on that he was crossed by the wise men.. It mentions that they saw the star, which is why they came. That establihes the star on the Israel scene, as prophesied. Why would anyone follow a star that appears as a sign a king was born, on a journey that likely took months, if they were prepared already, which also takes time, before the thing appeared? Therefore, likely, before the King appeared??? The logical progression, is that they saw the star, so Jesus was being born, then prepared, and came to Jerusalem! That is what fits with the timing in the rest of the bible, nothing else anyhow!! As demented, and vile as the king may have been, he likely was still smart enough to realize he should not kill too many people's kids for no reason. The logical assumption is that he went close to the timeframe of when he heard from the wise men the star appeared. Why? Again, becsuse star = Jesus being born. The evidence mounts. No. I never said he was not good at sending thugs out to murder. When they got to Bethlehem, and asked around, they would realize that Mary possibly, say, went back to Nazerteh, about 60 miles north of Jerusalem. In other words, this all could have happened in a day or so, so the angel was not messing around, The idea was, 'get up NOW, and boot it out of here, no foolin' Widely is a comparitive concept, in the primitive communication system of the time. Then there was who said what. The crowing of some shepherds, and their family or friends, none of who actually saw it anyhow, never made it to the halls of the king. The whole operation was smooth. They likely got out of that drafty, disgusting manger about as fast as some get out of a hospital these days, maybe next day!!?? How long would you hang out in that smelly place, with a newborn to take care of?? Mary had the visit from Gabriel in Nazereth, so she had connections, and likely a nice place to stay there. She also had friends, and a cousin Elizabeth, so why hang out in a barn longer than needed??? Elemetary. No, you can't, and I don't. It doesn't say the things you interpret, like that the king heard about some peon shepherd's delusions, or claims of grandeur. (as might have been thought of the poor kids) The bringing of the child to the temple, and such events, are clocked to the day. To fit, we need to look at Matthew in that light, not in the light of your fantasies, that leave the whole thing a joke, and fraud, and false. Of course. We don't know. One can assume that some good had to come of that scene. Many of Israel's scripture experts were brought in, and so it was almost the equivelent of a news conference that Messiah had come!!! The exact location was still hid, because there were wicked men there as well, and God keeps His security real tight on blabbing everything to enemies. What they needed to know was that Shiloh had come!!! Not where to whack Him. -Yet. [qs] Your opinion is irrelevant. A straightforward reading of the text says they did. No, it isn't!!! It deoends on WHO was saying what. If it had reached the palace we would have seen that at the meeting, the news conference! The FACT is, it certainly had NOT!!! You are wrong, says the bible, wrong wrong wrong. There is the hint that kingo had no clue what was going on, despite many in Bethlehem are already knowing!! That sounds a lot like the new 'somehow' was hindered from getting to the palace thugs. There was the ancient prophesy of Herod's murders, so we know God had his number! There was overwhelming air power on the scene, so, even if whack kingo heard, he had no chance of getting near the King of kings!!!
Then there was the fact that the star over Israel was not even comprehended by the powers that were there!! Sounds like there may have been some clue withholding going on there?What you mean is there was no visible, recorded hinderance yet.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Right, there was a spiritual level before Babel, I think that is obvious, angels even marrying girls, etc. Is there a point??Does this have something to do with visiting spirits, and vessels, of Jesus' day???

Who cares how high the spiritual level was??? Point is it was low enough, that it was possible to build a tower to it. How high can a tower be built??? What does it have to do with 2007 years ago?? Focus. Ha. What a scream. Since no one else seems to have the heart to inform you, guess it falls on me to have to be the one here. The tower of Babel was just after the flood!!! Jesus was just a few thousand years ago. Any more questions??? Get a grip, man.

OK, so I guess it was brought up also in this thread. I think my previous post should cover that.

Why assume that the star appeared at the time of His birth? How do you know the star didn't presage/portend/foreshadow/predict His birth? That's exactly my point. God didn't warn the wise men about Herod until after they met Jesus. He could have warned them not to go to Jerusalem at all, to follow the star directly to Bethlehem. If there was a clear and present danger, God screwed it up.So, clearly there was no imminent danger. God knew that Herod would take a while to make up his mind what to do.Again, we have the issue of the shepherds' news. God knew that the news of Jesus' birth would reach Jerusalem within days - or even hours - so there was no point in preventing the wise men from going there. In fact, they served as a handy diversion, since Herod thought they were working for him. They saw a star and went to Jerusalem because of it. It was a sign/omen/portent that a king would be born, not necessarily that He had already been born. Again, there is no indication of a timeframe from when the wise men saw the star until they arrived in Jerusalem. It would have been months, at least, and possibly longer. I'm not talking about Herod's competence at thuggery. I'm talking about his competence at mathematics. It doesn't matter how fast the thugs might have found Jesus. What matters is that, to the best of Herod's knowledge, Jesus was much, much younger than two years old at the time the innocents were massacred. If Jesus was twenty-five months old, then Oopsee!, they missed the one target they were aiming for.And if Jesus was already twenty-five months at the time, it was a waste of time warning Joseph and sending him to Egypt. Mary, Joseph and Jesus could have sat there calmly in their lawn chairs watching the slaughter with no danger to Jesus whatsoever. Another baseless assertion.

quote:

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Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.

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The tidings were "to all people". There was no secret. The shepherds "made it known abroad". (The angel practically ordered them to spread the news.) There is no reason to expect that the news wouldn't have gone rapidly to Jerusalem. Probably quicker than that. Imagine the innkeeper's wife: "What? You put a pregnant woman about to give birth in the stable?" *brandishes rolling pin* "What the #$%^ is wrong with you? Get out there and bring her into the house right now! Put her in our bed, you lazy, good-for-nothing #$%^!"Which is why the wise men found them in the house a few hours later. Correct. And that had to happen after the wise men's visit, or the spreading of the news "to all people" would have tipped off Herod too soon. Well, it was Luke who said it: the news was for "all people" and the shepherds "made it known abroad". That's exactly what I'm saying. The "news conference" - i.e. the meeting of the best-informed and brightest of Herod's advisers - hadn't heard the news because it hadn't happened yet. The simplest way to reconcile Matthew's account with Luke's is to conclude that the wise men were in Jerusalem when Jesus was born, before the news had made the trip of a few hours from Bethlehem.It was all timed with "military precision", if you think about it. (I'd be glad to lay it out in even more detail if you're still confused.) It would make for a very dramatic movie. The news was hindered by how fast commuters could walk from Bethlehem to Jerusalem. For the sake of our interested readers, could you please cite and quote the book, chapter and verse where Herod's murders are prophesied?

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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It fits with the bible timetable, and it fits with Herod being obsessed with knowing when the star appeared, and ordering a hit on the kids of about that age. It also makes good sense that a star appears for a king at birth. Otherwise why would it be his special star??? Millions would be born in the 28 years you posit. False. As much as you would like Him to have messed it up He was right on top of things. If He warned them before, or even in the palace, the news conference could not have been held, announcing Shiloh had come to the assembled bigwigs of Israel. Obviously.So, He directed them right at that point Personally, via the star, guiding them the right way. Your whole scenario rests on Herod & co being somehow in the loop. No chance at all of that. Herod was out maneuvered, outclassed, and outfoxed. No. He knew, that if they sent thugs to Bethlehem, they would find out that He was long gone, and be hot on the scent. That was when He moved, and had His agents, the angels, act to keep on top of all the king's horses, and all the king's men. Says who, that it was a sign He would be born some day???? A better reading of it is that He was born, and that fits with the big bible picture, and timings. So, the months, or longer you admit to is precisely how long they took. Up to two full years. False, He ordered a hit all the way up to two years for a good reason. That was when He was told the star appeared. I never said 25 months. I said up to two years. If they asked around Bethlehem, they may have found out where Mary had moved after Shiloh was born. False. It is totally based, and solid, because the bible records Herod as not knowing, and asking the wise men to get some intelligence for him. Absurd. The tidings were of the savior, that would eventually affect all people. It even spells it out, and says "shall be.." One of the signs of the end is that the good news will be preached all over the earth, as it now is. It never happened that week.As already covered, the peon peasant shepherds tales were of limited coinage in the currency of the government of the time. Interesting fantasy. But we don't know that he was married, and the Inn was packed out. But, even if something like that did happen, it wasn't like they lived there long, and there is no reason to assume they would stay in Bethlehem. They were there on business, that was simply not their home in any way. That is the facts. You missed the obvious there. Think about it. After the wise men's visit was when the angel told them to flee. No time to mess around the temple. By the way, the temple was in Jerusalem, miles away. That happens to be on the way to Nazareth, as I suggest!!!! The time is about perfect as well!!! The evidence mounts!! They made known, it seems what happened to them. They talked in their circle of friends and family, etc. It doesn't mean that the news of messiah was to be all over the world that day or week. The measure of the messiah having been born, was not what the palace people pieced together. To get the low down on God's son, we simply have to follow the star. It was in the loop. Herod's horrible hit men, and haughty heads were not. How many simple shepherds walked into the palace per week, do you imagine?? Especially if this was in winter, when, I am told, there was not really any sheep grazing going on. It looks like this may have been a special movement, possibly explaining why there were 'shepherds', not just the one shepherd. Something, like say a good number of sheep being sold, and delivered. Or heading to slaughter, like Jesus would be one day??I kid you not. Sure.Matt 2:17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, 18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.--- Jer 31:15 - Thus says the LORD, "A voice is heard in Ramah, Lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children; She refuses to be comforted for her children, Because they are no more.""...Rama was not in Arabia, as Justin Martyr says, but a town in the tribe of Benjamin, (Joshua 18:25) and very near to Bethlehem in the tribe of Juda: between these two places, and near to both of them, was the grave of Rachel, (Genesis 35:19) for which reason, and also because Rama belonged to Benjamin, a son of hers, and where, no doubt, many children were destroyed in this massacre, as well as at Bethlehem, Rachel is introduced in the prophecy representing the sorrowful mothers of those parts,.."
Matthew 2 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgEdited by simple, : No reason given.

Because it was, according to your story, below the height at which God was zipping around directing folks to Jesus. And therefore low enough that had God sat at his throne in Heaven he could have been lower to the location of Jesus' birth than had he zipped around in his spaceship. Focus! Who cares really, more important is that people could have walked into Heaven from any large hill. The location of Heaven did not change until Jesus rose to Heaven. Heaven was at the same height during the Babel era as the Christ era. These are your words how many times is nessesary to quote your words before you get it? This aint my story, I think its stupid. I would love to have someone else explain your logic! I suspect its not that others don't have the heart its more that they also think your story is stupid. If I am wrong I would be pleased to have someone logically explain how your story is possible. Should I quote again the part where you said Jesus moved Heaven after he died and went there? Got it, if you could figure out how illogical your story is you would realize the grip I have is sufficient.

There was no "news conference" at Herod's palace. It was the wise men who brought the news of Jesus' birth to Herod. The conference was for Herod to compare their news with what his advisors already knew.The announcement of Jesus' birth was made by the angel and the heavenly host - directly to the shepherds and indirectly "to all people". That announcement would have reached Herod by normal gossip channels very soon after Jesus' birth. No "chance" was needed. It was an absolute certainty - given human nature - that Jesus' birth could not be kept a secret from Herod. The Bible records that Herod didn't know anything at all about Jesus until the wise men told him. The Bible records that the angel and the heavenly host announced the birth "to all people", so it's highly unlikely that Herod wouldn't have known pretty soon.The Bible records that Herod's advisors told him that the child would be born in Bethlehem, so he sent the wise men there to spy for him and report back to him. You can't use the fact that it isn't "the end" yet to conclude that the birth of Jesus was a deep dark secret.When an ordinary child is born, the parents tell everybody. But this was no ordinary child. This wasn't even an ordinary king. The glad tidings of great joy which shall be to all people didn't have to wait two thousand or more years to kick in. They started to spread that very night.What's absurd is your notion that news on that scale wouldn't spread a few miles to Jerusalem. A few miles away in Jerusalem isn't "all over the world". The fact that the angel said the news was for "all people" indicates that the shepherds were intended to spread the news. Irrelevant. The shepherd told his wife who told her sister who told her hairdresser who told her husband (who happened to work in Jerusalem) who told his boss who told his barber. One of Herod's spies was sitting in the next chair. He reported to his supervisor who reported to the Director who reported to Herod. Herod said, "Yeah, I already sent some wise guys to get the exact address."Jesus wasn't twelve hours old yet.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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Since what they knew was nothing, it was a news conference, that brought them up to speed fast. You are overplaying your weak hand here. The announcement was not to all people it was to the shepherds. It was, FOR, one day, all people. "shall be" future tense. Of course it could. Until God arranged the news conference. You need to look at the things that happened, that make a timeline of, as mentioned, 2 1/2 months, to 2 years. One key timing point is the dream to flee, that was after the wise men came. Unless you toss out the bible as garbage, you have to take it into account. And He was born in Bethlehem, How would the out of the loop would be wise men of the palace know that that town was a very temporary thing for the royal family?? It was known to many of God's people, not to the wicked murdering rulers of Israel of that time. And for good reason. Even before that, as Gabriel came to Mary before she conceived! But the word never reached Herod till the wise men came. As much as that seems a shock to you. No doubt the wise men were stunned at the ignorance of the palace as well. You read all that into it??? I never saw where they had some great commission to preach to all men on earth that night??? The savior was for all men, eventually, but the news they spread was what happened to them. Not some great quest to reach all men. They were excited. Not like they had just been knighted in some monkquest holy cause to be the instruments to reach all men. That is patently ridiculous.. Can you not see there is nothing but speculation there?? Again, you leave God out of the picture. If word from some relative, or some such, was about to get out, say, maybe they were going to Jerusalem, maybe their donkey got pregnant, and they passed it up. Or some such. The Almighty was right there, above, in the guise of the Christmas star. I can hardly believe that the obvious has remained unknown for so long. What a great disguise. In fact, if I wanted to tell someone about the manger, and not have it get to the rulers, I can't think of a better lot to tell than poor shepherds.The operation was like a well oiled machine.