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Author | Topic: Does God Really Exist??? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
And if Jesus or God were on trial in a court of law, and if the evidence that proved their existance was "Christians" would the evidence be enough to prove the existance or would the evidence be thrown out? Thrown out, because all their testimony would be hearsay. Otherwise you could confirm the legal existence of Santa Claus based on the testimony of children. But I don't see anyone booking flights to the North Pole.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Bt the Disciples of Christs (and other SECULAR) historians DID see Jesus, and they SAW him perform miracles, including his own ressurection from the dead. Right, but unfortunately, nobody saw them, either. They penned no historical record. The Bible was written entirely by people who could not have been eyewitnesses to the events chronicled. Hence, hearsay.
So yes there testimony would be considered eyewitness accounts. It would, if we had their testimony. But we don't. We have testimony about them, not from them.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Why do you think the four Gospels are called "Matthew, Mark, Luke and John" because those are the names of the people who wrote them! Actually, no. The authors of Matthew and Luke are unknown - the names of those two gospels are simply 2nd-century guesses. They're referred to as Luke and Matthew because it's traditional, not because we have reason to believe those figures wrote them. As for Mark and John, Mark is the earliest gospel - Matthew and Luke copy it heavily, including some of the mistakes - and the earliest it could have been written was 70 CE. Popular myth holds that the writer Mark is also the apostle Mark, but internal evidence dispels this misapprehension. As for John it was written well after the other three, also anonymously. The account of Jesus's life that it gives contradicts the other three chronologically. So, what do we have? Four gospels, all second- or third-hand accounts, and they contradict each other. That doesn't stand up in court.
Straight testimony from the eyewitnesses themselves. Nope. You need to do a little research on this. No scholar believes the gospels to be eyewitness accounts.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Thirdly, ever hear of the law of Conservation of Angular Momentum? Yes, but you haven't. It doesn't contradict the Big Bang. Therefore we know that whatever you think the law is, you're wrong.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Another statement made without an example given. Oh, I'm sorry. I assumed you knew,having read the Bible and all. Maybe you haven't read it? Here's some examples:
quote: From No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/john.html Because if you are right then that means that all the Scholars I know who say they believe the gospels to be eyewitness accounts are ALL lying. That, or they're misinformed. Can you provide the evidence that they're using to substantiate that claim?
PS. read Dr. Simon Greenleaf on the issue.... I'm not impressed that your source was writing in the 1800's. Why don't you try a more modern source?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
If you like I can send you a picture of me in my lab coat. Heh. I can send you a picture of me with an eyepatch, but that doesn't make me a pirate. Why don'y you send us a copy of the peer-reviewed papers you've published? If you're a biologist, then you should have some...
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Those are such ridiculous examples I'm not even going to reply to all of them.. Your inability to refute them is noted.
People told me about the Janet Jackson thing. Right, and if you had a group of people, and some of them told you that it happened before the second quarter, and then other people told you that it happened after the game, and then some other people told you that it happened at halftime, but before Kid Rock performed, and they couldn't seem to reach any kind of agreement, wouldn't you conclude that none of these people were actually eyewitnesses?
I didn't see it, I didn't watch the halftime show. Right. Exactly like the gospel authors. Which would make both your testimony about Janet and their testimony about Jesus hearsay, and therefore inadmissible in court.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The apostles were the eyewitnesses. Yes. But we don't have their testimony. Even if the gospel authors directly interviewed the apostles, second-hand accounts of their testimony is still hearsay. This isn't hard to understand. You can't admit second-hand testimony into court. [This message has been edited by CreationMan, 02-18-2004]
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You keep saying that the gospels are not the Apostle's testimony, but you fail to show any proof. The gospels are unsigned. There's no evidence that they were written by the folks whose names they bear because those names were added in the 2nd century. And here's the thing - since there's no reason to believe that the gospels were written by who they say they were, I don't have to prove that they weren't - just like I don't have to prove that they weren't written by Elvis. If you think that the gospels are eyewitness accounts, then you need to substantiate that with evidence. Feel free to do so at this topic:
EvC Forum: Eyewitness To Jesus? The Gospel Authors Just because some scholars don't believe it doesn't make it so. No. But given that scholars are in a business where they have to substantiate their beliefs with evidence, it's fruitful to ask "why do they believe such a thing?"
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
All scholars of the Holy Spirit have come to a rather different conclusion. Based on what evidence? Just because you have the Holy Spirit, that doesn't mean you can abandon scholarly reliance on evidence for just making things up.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
They see no evidence of God inspired writings because they see no God. Well, now, wait a minute. That's not what we're talking about. Whether or not the Bible was inspired (or even dictated) by God is not a question you can address with physical evidence. Moreover it's not the question we were talking about. What we were talking about, and what you gave an opinion on, was the question of who the authors of the Gospel were. There's no evidence that they were apostles, or even eyewitnesses to the events they wrote about. There's every reason to believe that the gospels weren't written until almost a century after the events in question were supposed to occur. Divine inspiration isn't what we were talking about. What we were talking about was the identity of the Bible authors. That's a question that can be substantiated with evidence that is irrelevant to the belief of the scholar. For instance if the question is "who wrote the book Lies and the Lying Liars who Tell Them?" then the validity of evidence pointing to Al Franken has nothing to do with whether you or I voted for Bush. Don't try to change the subject. What evidence do you have that the gospels are eyewitness accounts by apostles?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Here's JonF, from another thread:
quote: Like I said, if you find this argument compelling it's because you misunderstand both conservation of angular momentum and the cosmological models.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
No scientific test has ever shown an explosion to produce ANY form of life. The Big Bang isn't an explosion, by the way. So your position about explosions is kind of a strawman, isn't it?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
This is off-topic but:
How do the stars keep lit with flame if there is no oxygen in space? Stars don't combust. They produce energy through the fusion of hydrogen nuclei into helium. This is a process that generates intense energy and requires no oxygen, because it's a nuclear reaction, not a chemical one. If you have more questions about stars you should take them to the astronomy topics.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I was skeptical until my hair stood on end and I heard what sounded like six or seven voices at once eminate from him. Did you know that there's a group of Tibetian monks that has perfected the art of making the throat produce multiple notes at the same time? I don't think there's anything supernatural about that. I once saw a guy on a beach stacking jagged, almond-shaped rocks (about breadbox size), end-to-end (the tall way) in piles taller than himself. Most people couldn't believe he was doing it without some kind of adhesive or binder but he wasn't - he was just that good at balancing. Plenty of things are normally possible - ludicrous feats of balance or multiple sounds from one throat - it's just that they're either so hard or so rare that people usually never see them done. So when they do, it's altogether too easy to ascribe it to some kind of supernatural force. I guess what I'm saying is that there's more than enough weirdness in the normal, natural world to account for the "supernatural" experiences of you and basically everybody else.
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