A Little Practice in Faith

You missed the point by a few inches is my guess. Now why didn't I get these kind of responses when I was suggesting evidence for God's hand in my life?I did not interpret it as evidence of God's hand in my life (and I am male, btw). I have interpreted other things, including some of what I mentioned in post 28, the post after yours, as evidence of God's hand in my life. The lice incident was an example of our way of thinking, interpreting things as the hand of God, because that's the way we already believe. (It seemed pertinent to the discussion at the time, because people were commenting on our way of thinking, not just that we believe in God.)There are some reasons I believe, but the lice incident is not one of them. I guess we don't really pray the way other people pray--at least not much--so I didn't mention prayer. In fact, the reason, in my eyes, that God enters into any of this is because God enters into everything for us. Yes, I could have. However, this thread wasn't on evidence for God. I did go ahead and slip into some of that in post 28 if you want to address any of those. Since we seem to have chased all the believers off by winning evolution debates with them, I guess I'll switch and talk to you guys, since you seem to want to, anyway.

I read that. Fascinating how people are willing to live.

truthlover, you didn't really answer the question.So I guess this means that you've chosen option C: God plays favorites, and rather arbitrarily at that.Yeah, yeah, god has a plan. God has a plan to treat some people well and to grind some other people into dust all their life.Does that seem like the action of one who is "good" to you?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I answered the question before you ever repeated it. I was satisfied with the answer, and Dan Carroll may not have agreed with it or even thought it was a good answer, but I think he considered it an answer.In case you missed it, the answer was, "I don't think it's conclusive that those are the only three options."I think the discussion has gone on long enough to show reasons I don't think those are the only options. Others have disagreed with my reasons, but none of them have continued demanding I pick one of their three options. Your demand that I do so is what made you miss my answer.

truthlover responds to me:

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I think the discussion has gone on long enough to show reasons I don't think those are the only options.

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I guess I'm being oblivious, then, because I don't see it. From all that you have said, it appears that you do fall in the third option but you don't like the way it is phrased.So help me out here. Less poetry and more substance. What are other options that I'm missing?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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What are other options that I'm missing?

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I don't want to be more specific. There are reasons I don't think any of the options work, and I don't have a good fourth one.I think I've seen God be good to those who acknowledge him. On the other hand, I've had two "friends of a friend" who had horrible circumstances strike them. One was a lady abducted from a pizza place who was carried out to the desert and murdered. The other was killed by a mountain lion on a jog in the Sierra Nevadas around 1992.It is possible that means he is just capricious about who he's good to and who he's bad to. It is possible that means he doesn't exist, or maybe even doesn't care. However, it's also possible that there's a lot more to life than we know or understand, that our physical lifespan is very short compared to our spiritual lifespan, etc.My later posts were to suggest that even those who have been through some pretty awful suffering in this world have not concluded that God must necessarily have been evil towards them, that their temporary suffering worked for their long term good.

"My later posts were to suggest that even those who have been through some pretty awful suffering in this world have not concluded that God must necessarily have been evil towards them, that their temporary suffering worked for their long term good."I can agree in part, but couldn't this line of thinking be used to prove the opposite as well? It really does depend on the 'suffering' involved and the victims perspective and perception, but I find it horrible to suggest that a tragedy can be thought of as "working together for their long term good." I know what you mean, and I am not claiming that this biblical god causes evil (although on the other hand the bible states he does; will provide chapt/verses if requested), but what possible purpose can there be when a child is raped? I know, I am now guilty of arguing from my emotions, but I'm trying to prove a point: I cannot believe in the biblical god because there have been and there are now too many attrocities that have not been vindicated. Perhaps I am just a worm and therefore I am unable to comprehend this 'wisdom' of the biblical god.
Again, if I am missing your last point, I apologize; I am simply trying to learn and understand posistions contrary to mine.

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I know what you mean, and I am not claiming that this biblical god causes evil (although on the other hand the bible states he does; will provide chapt/verses if requested)

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I don't remember the exact verse, but I know it says that. I was a charismatic most of the time that I was in mainline Christianity, and I had to notice verses like that, because everyone around me was claiming they didn't exist or didn't mean what they said.

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what possible purpose can there be when a child is raped?

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Well, I have to admit that I don't even have a desire to attempt an answer to that one. I, too, just wish it didn't happen.I have thoughts, about judgments on the perpetrator and the like. Tertullian, who lived in North Africa (Carthage) in the late 2nd and early 3rd century said that he'd seen rape used as a form of persecution to the Christians there, because nothing else seemed to bother them. I mentioned Mimosa earlier, who told her own story about the temple prostitution she was put into, wishing she could have been rescued like the others Amy Carmichael rescued. She didn't hold it against Amy's God, but waited years until she could escape and joined Amy at Dohnavur.I don't have good answers here, because I hate that stuff as much as anyone does, but I'm just pointing out that even those who experienced such suffering didn't conclude that God must not exist or must be bad, capricious, or cruel.

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I know, I am now guilty of arguing from my emotions

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There's nothing wrong with arguing from emotion, in my opinion, as long as the emotion is based on something that really happened.

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I can agree in part, but couldn't this line of thinking be used to prove the opposite as well?

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It *is* being used to prove the opposite. I'm not trying to prove anything, but simply suggesting that the proof is not conclusive.On this subject, I totally understand the argument, and I'm arguing on the defensive side, because even I realize the argument is pretty strong and backed by all our emotions, including mine. However, on my side, I believe the suffering is not the whole story, that perspectives change (some) when our lifespans are not limited to this physical life, and that there are positive evidences of supernatural aid to those who seek it that are not so easily dismissed as coincidence or hallucination, or so easily dismissed just because they are not repeatable and thus not testable. There's scientific evidence and there's legal evidence, and testimony carries some weight, too.

But truthlover, if our lifetimes are not to be measured by the physical, why bother with it? Why put people through suffering if god is just going to snuff it out and put the real important stuff in the next phase?Why the middleman? Why is there any suffering at all if god can do something about it?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Why don't you try seeing if you can come up with a more general question, so that I can address all of life in one post? :-0I have ideas, Rrhain, but people have been writing books and talking about this since at least the time of the Greek philosophers. This is way too general a question for me to answer. I don't really know, but I do know that some things just aren't learned without pain.

truthlover responds to me:

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But truthlover, if our lifetimes are not to be measured by the physical, why bother with it? Why put people through suffering if god is just going to snuff it out and put the real important stuff in the next phase?

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Why don't you try seeing if you can come up with a more general question, so that I can address all of life in one post? :-0

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'K! How's this for a better one:Why?

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I have ideas, Rrhain, but people have been writing books and talking about this since at least the time of the Greek philosophers. This is way too general a question for me to answer.

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I don't think so. I think we've got our answer:C: God is arbitrary and capricious.

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Why is there any suffering at all if god can do something about it?

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I don't really know, but I do know that some things just aren't learned without pain.

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No, some things are learned more quickly with pain.F'rinstance, I'll learn not to put my hand in the fire a lot more quickly if I actually put my hand in a fire, but I can learn not to do it without having to do so. It's been studied and shown many times over that positive reinforcement is a better teaching tool than negative reinforcement.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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I don't think so. I think we've got our answer:

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C: God is arbitrary and capricious.

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That is what many conclude. Obviously I'm among those that don't, and you're among those that do.

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No, some things are learned more quickly with pain.

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I agree that some things are learned more quickly with pain. Others can be learned just as quickly without pain. Some things, at least for some people, are only learned through pain. Surely you have given advice to someone, had them reject it, then watched them pay for their decision, then thought, "I told you so."Those things are things learned only by pain.

truthlover responds to me:

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Some things, at least for some people, are only learned through pain. Surely you have given advice to someone, had them reject it, then watched them pay for their decision, then thought, "I told you so."

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But if I am being attentive over their progress, they'll never get that far. There's a reason that the cars used by those teaching student drivers have that brake on the passenger side, too. It's to make sure we never get to that point.But you still need to tell us what a child needed to learn through the pain of being raped and murdered.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Been addressed, and I didn't say a child would learn something from being raped and murdered.I've not been raped. It sounds horrible. I do know a couple people who have been raped, and they both love God. I do not believe evil occurrences on earth demands or proves that a good God cannot exist.

I've not been raped. It sounds horrible. I do know a couple people who have been raped, and they both love God. I do not believe evil occurrences on earth demands or proves that a good God cannot exist.I am glad to know that you haven't been attacked in the above manner, but I was trying to respond to the contention that everything has a purpose/reason to exist/happen. I don't think that anyone would suggest that a rape, murder, robbery or The Hulk movie are part of a loving god's plan; it could be argued that those horrible things happen as a result of sin running rampant, thus we do not ask god for help or protection; but why do the innocent suffer so? I know, this is philosophical but I am interested to know what you think, Truth. I used to believe as you (more or less) and when confronted with these issues, I simply did not have an answer.
I am still looking for one, or at least an opinion.