A Little Practice in Faith

truthlover responds to Dan Carroll:

quote:

---

quote:

---

Fair enough. Personally, I don't see how the suffering of the world can lead a person to anything other than one of three conclusions.

---

​

How about, I don't really know what the hell's going on with the really awful things I know about, or how things got this way, but things don't seem all that random and unguided from my perspective, so now I have to deal with that?

---

OK...so "things don't seem all that random and unguided." I guess that means you've eliminated the "There is no god" and the "God does not interfere with the world option."That leaves the "God plays favorites. And rather arbitrarily, at that" option.How else do you explain it? If god does exist and does interfere in the workings of the world, what can possibly explain the situation in the Congo?Come on...you're descended from Adam who ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and thus "became as gods, knowing good from evil." Surely you, too, understand the grand design there is in the deaths of millions of people.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover, you didn't really answer the question.So I guess this means that you've chosen option C: God plays favorites, and rather arbitrarily at that.Yeah, yeah, god has a plan. God has a plan to treat some people well and to grind some other people into dust all their life.Does that seem like the action of one who is "good" to you?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

I think the discussion has gone on long enough to show reasons I don't think those are the only options.

---

I guess I'm being oblivious, then, because I don't see it. From all that you have said, it appears that you do fall in the third option but you don't like the way it is phrased.So help me out here. Less poetry and more substance. What are other options that I'm missing?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

But truthlover, if our lifetimes are not to be measured by the physical, why bother with it? Why put people through suffering if god is just going to snuff it out and put the real important stuff in the next phase?Why the middleman? Why is there any suffering at all if god can do something about it?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

quote:

---

But truthlover, if our lifetimes are not to be measured by the physical, why bother with it? Why put people through suffering if god is just going to snuff it out and put the real important stuff in the next phase?

---

​

Why don't you try seeing if you can come up with a more general question, so that I can address all of life in one post? :-0

---

'K! How's this for a better one:Why?

quote:

---

I have ideas, Rrhain, but people have been writing books and talking about this since at least the time of the Greek philosophers. This is way too general a question for me to answer.

---

I don't think so. I think we've got our answer:C: God is arbitrary and capricious.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Why is there any suffering at all if god can do something about it?

---

​

I don't really know, but I do know that some things just aren't learned without pain.

---

No, some things are learned more quickly with pain.F'rinstance, I'll learn not to put my hand in the fire a lot more quickly if I actually put my hand in a fire, but I can learn not to do it without having to do so. It's been studied and shown many times over that positive reinforcement is a better teaching tool than negative reinforcement.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

Some things, at least for some people, are only learned through pain. Surely you have given advice to someone, had them reject it, then watched them pay for their decision, then thought, "I told you so."

---

But if I am being attentive over their progress, they'll never get that far. There's a reason that the cars used by those teaching student drivers have that brake on the passenger side, too. It's to make sure we never get to that point.But you still need to tell us what a child needed to learn through the pain of being raped and murdered.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

quote:

---

But you still need to tell us what a child needed to learn through the pain of being raped and murdered.

---

​

Been addressed, and I didn't say a child would learn something from being raped and murdered.

---

No, but you did bring up the following (Message 36): So please let me know: What could possibly be the point of a child being raped and murdered? What is the spiritual point?And again, why the middleman? If the physical time is so insignificant, if nothing here is of any importance compared to the spiritual, why have the physical at all? Why put so many people through so much suffering for nothing?

quote:

---

I've not been raped. It sounds horrible. I do know a couple people who have been raped, and they both love God. I do not believe evil occurrences on earth demands or proves that a good God cannot exist.

---

I didn't say it did. While that was a possibility, that wasn't a necessary conclusion.There were multiple possibilities that god does exist but for some reason does not stop it. One is that god can't. Another is that god is capricious and arbitrary.You're sure there's another answer, but you don't want to give any details as to what it may be.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

mike the wiz responds to me:

quote:

---

quote:

---

There were multiple possibilities that god does exist but for some reason does not stop it. One is that god can't.

---

​

if God did stop every evil from man's sinful and wicked heart it would quite clearly mean that God had lost by being tempted of evil.

---

Oh? Why? Weren't Adam and Eve without sin and wicked heart? Wasn't Mary born without sin? Wasn't Noah the only good man left on the planet? Why do these other people get to be perfect?

quote:

---

evil would have won.every evil act -he would respond,isn't it easier to see that rape and murder is evil from man , otherwise the commandment to not kill would instead be 'i will stop you from killing'.

---

Um, why not simply make man such that they don't do evil? After all, Adam and Eve weren't evil. All god needed to do was keep an eye on the serpent. Even better, all god had to do was simply not put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden and we'd never have to worry about the serpent or any other animal.

quote:

---

if a man loves his neighbour like Godsaid do then none of us would suffer from rape or murder,

---

But the devil tempts people.And god turns people's hearts to stone and makes them sin.Why not construct man to be of the kind that they love their neighbor as themselves naturally?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

quote:

---

So please let me know: What could possibly be the point of a child being raped and murdered? What is the spiritual point?

---

​

This answer is for both Rrhain and Pogo. "I don't know" may not be satisfying to you, nor can I say that it is "satisfying" to me. However, it is an answer, and it can sometimes be the most accurate answer.

---

Not quite. It's a response, but it isn't an answer. It can be an acceptable response, but it is still just a response.The problem is that "I don't know" isn't the only thing you're saying. You're saying, "I don't know, but I'm certain there is a point."And that's the point I'm trying to get at: How on earth can you be so certain that there is a point to torturing an innocent? And even if there is a point, how can you be so certain that this point can't be made any other way?

quote:

---

What I know is that overall life is good enough that almost no one wishes they weren't still alive, even those who have been raped or abused as a child, although they may wish such a thing while it were happening.

---

But everyone who has been raped and abused most likely wishes it didn't happen.Why can't god figure out a way to do what needs to be done without the torture of innocents? If god can't do it, who can?The problem is not the existence of suffering so much as it is the existence of suffering foisted upon people so clearly undeserving of it.

quote:

---

quote:

---

And again, why the middleman? If the physical time is so insignificant, if nothing here is of any importance compared to the spiritual, why have the physical at all? Why put so many people through so much suffering for nothing?

---

​

This again is way too general a question for me to want to address here.

---

Then you'll forgive me if I keep repeating it until you decide that you want to address it. It's a very important question for those of us trying to understand where you're coming from. I don't expect a snappy answer, but I do expect some sort of answer.

quote:

---

I have lots of thoughts, and so does just about everyone else.

---

And I want to know what they are.Why are you holding back?

quote:

---

Anyway, past history says answering such a question to you would lead to pages long responses, all demanding that I see vague points and ideas you have and agree with assertions you make. Just the thought makes me tired.

---

If you think I can change your convictions simply by talking to you for a few minutes, then they're not your convictions to begin with.Why is the deep, meticulous examination of your philosophy "tiring"?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

quote:

---

The problem is that "I don't know" isn't the only thing you're saying. You're saying, "I don't know, but I'm certain there is a point."
And that's the point I'm trying to get at: How on earth can you be so certain that there is a point to torturing an innocent? And even if there is a point, how can you be so certain that this point can't be made any other way?

---

​

I said and am saying, "Basically, there's a lot more evidence about life and its purposes than just that really terrible things happen to human children and children of other species."

---

But that doesn't answer the question. Of course there is a lot more about life than terrible things, but the question is about the terrible things. What did a child do to deserve torture? What purpose does it serve? Why can't this purpose be carried out in some other way that doesn't involve the destruction of an innocent?Once again, you seem to have settled upon the third option of god being capricious and arbitrary.

quote:

---

I agree that if there was nothing else going on around us than the torture of innocents, then I would have to conclude this is a horrible, malicious universe, and hopefully no one is in charge and responsible of the horror and maliciousness.

---

But that only takes care of the first possibility, that there is no god. Instead, you seem to have taken the third option, that god is capricious and arbitrary.

quote:

---

However, there's a lot more going on than the torture of innocents. Things happen that provide evidence to me of purpose and intervention by a God who cares about his creation. You are focused on the torture of innocents, and it's all you are discussing. To you, it's so overwhelming, all other evidence ought to be ignored.

---

Not at all. In fact, it is because that we see all of the things that are not the torture of innocents that makes us focus on it. Since this god of yours is so capable of doing all these other things that are not the torture of innocents, why is it that he can't manage to take care of that, too?We're back to the third option: God is capricious and arbitrary.

quote:

---

It's not to me, and when I tell you that, you don't ask about the other evidence, you ask--as far as I can tell--why I pay attention to anything else but the torture of innocents.

---

That's because we already accept that there are things that aren't the torture of innocents. It is because we can see things that are not horrific that we can distinguish the horrific things and wonder why they occur. You seem to be certain that there is a point for them but are reluctant to discuss what that point may be.So we are left with the third option: God is capricious and arbitrary.

quote:

---

When I answer that there is a lot more going on around us that is good and purposeful, in my opinion, you bring up the torture of innocents again and claim that I've given you no answer.

---

That's because you haven't. You're right that we're not focusing on the good things in life because we aren't questioning those. If god is loving and caring and active and present, then it makes sense that there are good things going on. That leaves the terrible things to have to explain. If god is loving and caring and active and present, then what on earth is the point of the torture of the innocent?

quote:

---

We could go around and around like that forever.

---

And we seem to be.If you don't want to discuss it, then just say so. Don't avoid the issue claiming you have answered or make up excuses. Simply say you don't want to.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Why can't god figure out a way to do what needs to be done without the torture of innocents? If god can't do it, who can?

---

​

I don't know why, and if he can't, then no one can. However, being of limited knowledge, and seeing the hand of God a lot in my life and the lives of others, I believe there's a God, a good God, who has the ability to control all of life. I do not know why the innocent are occasionally tortured, or why people regularly die a slow, terribly painful death of chemotherapy and cancer.

---

So you're going with option three: God is capricious and arbitrary.

quote:

---

quote:

---

It's a very important question for those of us trying to understand where you're coming from.

---

​

Hmm. As far as I can tell, you're the only one asking.

---

No, I'm the only one continuing to ask. I wasn't the one that came up with the three options. That was Dan Carroll (Message 23). And then there was Pogo's responses to you (Message 27, for example).

quote:

---

I don't even spend my time thinking about such things, much less debating them.

---

Well, maybe you should. To quote one of my lines from the play I'm in, "I think we should all be open to any opportunity to learn more about ourselves. I think Socrates was very right when he said that one of the first rules in life for anyone is 'Know thyself.'"If you don't want to, fine. But please don't make excuses.

quote:

---

quote:

---

Why is the deep, meticulous examination of your philosophy "tiring"?

---

​

Long, pointless discussions are tiring.

---

It's pointless to understand your own philosophy and its implications?

quote:

---

There is a difference between deep and long, and meticulous examinations should be saved for important subjects. Who defines important? For me, me. For you, you.

---

Indeed. I guess I'm just shocked that you find your personal philosophy to be unimportant to you.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

quote:

---

Actually, we're back to the fourth option, that none of us really know, maybe--hold your breath and be shocked here--not even you!!

---

No, that's not quite it. You're not simply saying you don't know. You're saying you don't know what the reason is, but you know that there is a reason.That's option three: God is capricious and arbitrary.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!