A Little Practice in Faith

Oh LOL. WOHAAArAAAwoARhahahahahWOOahahahahahahehehahoagh. Good point. Religious folk do spend a lot of time thinking about themselves. It’s in the nature of religion. The world is so absolutely amazing, so moving, and so completely beyond the comprehension of a puny human mind, it is no wonder that we have invented religion. And we might still have to rely on religion, if it wasn’t for the steady progress of science. The time of religion is coming to and end. It remains, like war and poverty, a part of an uncivilised past that we MUST throw away to better ourselves. It is for a love of people and the natural world that I have come to this conclusion.

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The time of religion is coming to and end. It remains, like war and poverty, a part of an uncivilised past that we MUST throw away to better ourselves.

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Heh. I can make a cogent argument that civilisation is a necessary prerequisite for war, poverty and religion... and that to get beyond them, we need to get beyond our form of "civilisation".

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Heh. I can make a cogent argument that civilisation is a necessary prerequisite for war, poverty and religion... and that to get beyond them, we need to get beyond our form of "civilisation".

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I think there will always be conflict, but maybe not war.I think there will always be greed, but maybe not always poverty.I think there will always be some kind of belief in a higher power or unknown, but maybe not religion.Those are all really big "maybe's", however.

I was thinking about this, TL, and I have got to say that your idea that almost nothing that happens to you is random or accidental seems, to me, to be rather self-important.I know others have said as much, but, wow, I kind of can't believe you said that.

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I know others have said as much, but, wow, I kind of can't believe you said that.

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Actually, what TL said pretty much follows pretty directly from any belief in God, gods, or pervading universal consciousness. I wouldn't call it self-important. Think about two sentences. "I always fall down when I jump up." And... "Things always fall down when thrown up." The first sentence could be considered to have a bit of self importance to it, and this is roughly analogous to what TL said. However, if you think about it, the second sentence is more what was meant. TL can correct me if I'm wrong.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

I didn't know who to hit the reply button to. I just chose the last one.

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However, if you think about it, the second sentence is more what was meant. TL can correct me if I'm wrong.

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Here, everybody is taught to look for the hand of God. We had a lice breakout at the end of May. It was only three or four kids, but we assailed the problem with every weapon available. Our nurse and I researched lice on the internet. She then got together with several ladies and developed a plan for the whole community. We banned children sleeping over in the village, completely cleaned and treated the affected homes, washed all the clothes except some that we bagged and put away for 14 days, and had groups of ladies checking people's hair pretty much daily for over a week.Yeah, we said, "God sent us lice." We learned to be closer, and we got into each others' lives more. There are houses with mom's getting housekeeping assistance that we didn't recognize the need for before this.So, if that was your point, John, then we recommend that way of thinking to everyone; it's not just me, or even just us.We'd recommend that way of thinking even to those folks in the Congo we've been discussing.

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We'd recommend that way of thinking even to those folks in the Congo we've been discussing.

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They're already close. Mass graves don't leave much room.I guess if I want to make any point here, it's that belief in a loving God is probably a little easier to swallow in Rose Creek Village than it is in some other areas of the world. That might be something you want to keep in mind.-----------
Dan Carroll[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 06-25-2003]

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Any twentieth century American would definitely have to ask themselves exactly this question. Not all of us come up with the same answer you did, that this paints God in an rather unflattering light.

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Fair enough. Personally, I don't see how the suffering of the world can lead a person to anything other than one of three conclusions.1) There is no God.2) God does not interfere with the world.3) God plays favorites. And rather arbitrarily, at that.Your mileage, of course, may vary.

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Fair enough. Personally, I don't see how the suffering of the world can lead a person to anything other than one of three conclusions.

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How about, I don't really know what the hell's going on with the really awful things I know about, or how things got this way, but things don't seem all that random and unguided from my perspective, so now I have to deal with that?Addendum: I'm not talking about evolution here; I already know natural selection is not a random process.

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So, if that was your point, John, then we recommend that way of thinking to everyone; it's not just me, or even just us.

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Well, really, all I intended to address was Schraf's comments to the effect that believing that nothing it left to chance is self-centered.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

truthlover responds to Dan Carroll:

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Fair enough. Personally, I don't see how the suffering of the world can lead a person to anything other than one of three conclusions.

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How about, I don't really know what the hell's going on with the really awful things I know about, or how things got this way, but things don't seem all that random and unguided from my perspective, so now I have to deal with that?

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OK...so "things don't seem all that random and unguided." I guess that means you've eliminated the "There is no god" and the "God does not interfere with the world option."That leaves the "God plays favorites. And rather arbitrarily, at that" option.How else do you explain it? If god does exist and does interfere in the workings of the world, what can possibly explain the situation in the Congo?Come on...you're descended from Adam who ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and thus "became as gods, knowing good from evil." Surely you, too, understand the grand design there is in the deaths of millions of people.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Hmmm....when I used to believe, I never realized how circular this reasoning was. If God (the Christian God) causes a tragedy (sickness, death, loss, etc.) then we pray about it, specifically we pray for God to remove that which he has smitten us with. So, TL God sent you lice, then you used various resources (none of which mentioned prayer)to combat the problem. Where does God enter into any of this? Granted, it seems to have brought you and your community together with is great; but again, if God caused this, was it to test you and find out if you were capable of solving your own problems? It certainly seems like you are more than capable.
This post began with TL recounting a series of events that he (she?) interpreted as evidence of God's hand in his life. But this evidence is after the fact; you could just as easily said that you are incredibly lucky and as a result you succeeded in spite of yourself.
What if you are driving along a highway and I call you and say, "You know, I prayed that an 18-wheeler wouldn't run into you today while you were driving home; did it happen?" "No", you reply "Then praise God, he answered my prayer!"
Or did I miss the point by a mile? :-)

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Come on...you're descended from Adam who ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and thus "became as gods, knowing good from evil." Surely you, too, understand the grand design there is in the deaths of millions of people.

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First of all, I don't believe the Adam story is a literal story.Second of all, if the issue is only deaths, then the question is whether I understand the deaths of billions of people, because everyone dies, and people in the United States often suffer deaths every bit as bad as starving (at least I think a long, drawn-out battle with cancer or heart disease is as bad as starving--I've done neither).The issue is lives, because what really bothers us, me included, is that their life is miserable, not that they died in their misery.I guess people would be offended if I suggested that a relationship with God has allowed some people in pretty bad suffering to endure that suffering with joy. It's a little offensive for me to suggest that, because I haven't been through all that. The suffering exists nonetheless, and those who have endured it with trust in God and with joy would say what I just said.I remember Amy Carmichael's story, spending a lot of her life weeping over the children she was unable to rescue from India's "temple children" system (child prostitution), but she rescued, by whatever means were at hand, any she could, and it never touched her faith in God, nor that of those she resuced. In fact, one of the girls she was unable to rescue escaped as an adult from that system and joined her, also as a believer in God, despite her childhood. (Her name was Mimosa or something close to that.)I was an atheist once, for about a month, when I was 21. I had been moving in the direction of becoming an atheist for several years, and I remember finally saying to myself, "I need to admit it; there is no god."One of the reasons it only lasted a month was the movie "In the Presence of Mine Enemies." It's about a guy who was a POW in Vietnam for seven years. At the end of the seven years, they were let out into a yard with all the other prisoners, and the prisoners gathered in a circle, sang the National Anthem or some patriotic song, and then knelt and gave thanks to God.I was stunned that those prisoners could do that. Why didn't they stop believing in God after seven years of ill treatment and torture? My conclusion was that despite their suffering, in some way they were aware of God or his help during that time, and thus they didn't lose faith.I don't know what to say about suffering in the world. I haven't been there, not anything like some others have. But I don't think even all the sufferers agree with those of you who say it proves God is non-existent or heartless.

Well if you'll indulge me, I will answer your question with rock 'n roll:All good soldiers fall in line
when they march and shout
are a spectacle
marching and singing
they'll go anywhere the president says
because the president believes in god
like all good soldiers should
- Bad ReligionI cannot see how these soldiers reaction should have overcome your skepticism. All you saw was evidence of BELIEF - not evidence of TRUTH. I am sure there are countless examples of Muslims who have suffered, and then called out praises to god upon release. Is that evidence that their belief is true, or just evidence that they have belief?It is very useful to have religious soldiers. After all, they are promised an afterlife, so what do they have to lose? And thats just what you want in a soldier - bullet catchers for the slave masters.

Disposable heroes, my friend. "Back to the front - you will die, when I say, you must die!" (from a big fan of Bad Religion but a bigger fan of Metallica)Did anyone else read about the man who spent the last 22 years hiding from the Ba'ath Party in a 3x7-foot space inside his Baghdad house? He came out with most of the Koran memorized.