Here be my problem with "God"

The fundamentalists have us on this one, too. It's not smooth for a reason: To get us to study the Bible for all our lives (seek) and still not fully learn everything! And, of course, who are you to proclaim you know what God intended by including/excluding/obfuscating verses? The puzzling thing to me is that some people will put a lot of faith into third party testimony that was written many years (up to 60?) after the event by unconfirmed authors. And, on the basis of that, believe what is written over evidence to the contrary. In the half full half empty paradigm, this is either called "strong faith" or "blind faith", depending on whom you ask.

Your first and second statements seem contradictory, but I think I understand what you mean (i.e. semantics of the term).As an agnostic, I have to admit that moral standards are a bit of a puzzle for me, since without an absolute standard (such as a document like the Bible or Quran or Mormon book), we are left with personal opinions and a voting booth ... at least in our country ... so far. As for me, I get less liberal as I age (in proportion to hair length... and quantity). From where I see things going, it looks like moral standards evolve over time in Western civilization, and time will tell if that is a successful "organism" in the global competitive/political world.

All this talk about "knowing", and you claim to know more that you do: Maybe you don't know what the Bush administration knew. I'm not talking about WMD, either. I'm talking about a big picture of thwarting terrorists, protecting America from future attacks, etc. But that would be another thread and not related to EvC, which I really want to devote time to. I just have to balance the anti-Bush rhetoric every now and then.On the other hand, you are doing quite well in debating Phatboy.Personally, my intuition tells me the Earth and Heavens are all on the back of great big turtle.

Maybe that's because you can't get anyone to buy your ideas and fall at your feet, because you don't have a convincing argument to persuade people.Your cafeteria religious approach to faith has a weak foundation. Face it. You insist on some underlying truth in the Bible and not the literal words where they can be "proven" false (i.e. convincing evidence and logic, like science).My point about the turtles, which obviously upsets you because it hits home, is that intuition does not have to turn towards God and the Bible. Many people think the Republicans' power base is the religious right!You ought to check out who the power brokers are behind the Democrats. Those shark lawyers who love more laws to enrich themselves and drive up the costs of medical care. You also should check the bank accounts of your politicians. The "rich" argument cuts both ways. The democratic politians feed off of lackeys who vote with shallow thinking.