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Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Free Will and Biblical Prophecy: Are They Mutually Exclusive? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Here's a thing to think about. If someone is told what they are going to do, can they change it ? Under any circumstances ? If not, then how could we be said to have free will ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Unlike Buz, at least you have answered the question to an extent.
quote: If it took a particular sort of person then I'd have to say that only that sort of person could really have free will. Nevertheless the whole idea is worth thinking about, since it should provide insights into how prophecy could interact with the flow of events, For instance any "yes" answer implies that either God an be wrong or that the future can change.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: The issue here is that the theological and apologetic uses of free will pretty much require us all to have free will, not just a special few.
quote: If the future is fixed and God is always right it is impossible that anyone could do other than God predicted they would. A "yes" answer denies that.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: No, I am not. You claim that only a few people have the capability to go against prophecy - and you also agreed that the lack of this capability indicated a lack of free will.
quote: Therefore if I am given a prediction I will do something I should in principle have the ability to do otherwise - if I have free will. If I want to invalidate the prophecy then I should be able to do it by your own definition. But you suggest that only a few special people can do it.
quote: What you are ignoring is the possibility that being given the prophecy may change the "true free desires" of the subject by the time the predicted decision is made. I'm disappointed that my invitation to think more deeply has lead to such a shallow defence - one that ignores the basic point that it all depends on HOW prophecy and time work.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: No, you suggested that only a few people HAD the free will that gave them even the possibility of going against prophecy
Message 31
I am not claiming that the Free Will I'm describing that can exist with immutable prophecy is some sort of universal generality. I'm quite explicitly stating that it's an extreme special case.
quote: However, that does not address my original question. The issue is whether there is the possibility of going against prophecy. Even compatibilist formulations of free will would allow that much. In suggesting only a few people have that capability you are very much going against the whole concept of free will. If that possibility is not there, then it does not matter whether the prophecy is conveyed in a way which does not change our desires, since our desires do not truly control our decisions, which are fated not chosen.
quote: Yet your post did not truly consider the consequences. If that occurs free will demands that we must be able to act otherwise. If we cannot then free will is not removed- since we did not have it in the first place.
quote: But you are still failing to consider my basic point that thinking about these unusual cases lets us consider what may be going on "behind the scenes"
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: I am being more specific than that. The fact of the prophecy is additional information. If we have free will of any sort at all it must be possible in principle for that additional information to change the decisions we will make. If that is utterly impossible then we cannot have free will. Oh, and I don't have any formal training either. I have, however, read a fair amount around the subject and considered it fairly deeply on some occasions.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: OK, but the question here is whether we have Free Will to violate. Carefully wording prophecies so that they could coexist with Free Will is not enough. This is why I keep saying that we must think about what is going on. If we accept the possibility of prophecy is it a genuine vision of the future or an extrapolation ? If the former what is the effect of intervention ? After all, all prophecy is intervention. If it does not somehow change the future foreseen, what good is it ?
quote: You're pretty much saying that you don't care if we HAVE Free WIll so long as prophecies are worded so that we can't tell that we don't have it. I'm much more interested in the first question, and consider the second relatively unimportant.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: You are wrong on both points. If we do not have free will the idea that we might have had it in principle serves only to make the problem worse.
quote: If God is locked into a fixed course of action, unable to use His knowledge of the future to change the course of events by intervening then God is in a sorry state.
quote: Then your arguments are very confused. Wording the prophecies so they do not change the course of events is possible whether we have Free Will or not. Yet if it is not possible even in principle to go against prophecy then we do not have Free Will at all.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
I can make no other sense of "having free will in principle" other than "might have had free will". After all it must be distinguished from simply having free will - and more limited than having free will.
quote: Then it is more important than whether a prophecy is worded so as not to affect the decisions of those who read it or not. But you argued otherwise.
quote: That match SOME of your arguments and disagree with others. THat is WHY I say that you are confused.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: So what is the difference between having free will "in principle" from simply having free will ?
quote: It's no strawman Message 77If we have free will of any sort at all it must be possible in principle for that additional information to change the decisions we will make. I just want to quote this part again to point out the important section. I do not find "the possibility to change the decision we will make" to be the important part. I only find "the desire to change the decision we will make" to be important.
Message 90
No. I very much care if we HAVE Free Will. I just think that the principle of Free Will is much more important then the actual 'going through the motions' of it.
That's a complete reversal of your position.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: So when you said that you were explaining the distinction you meant that there wasn't one. But it was you who introduced the idea of having free will "in principle" rather than simply having free will. Do you see why I say that your arguments are confused ?
quote: The complete reversal of your position. If we do not have the possibility of acting contrary to prophecy even in principle then we do not have free will at all. Yet you said that that was "not the important part". But then you insist that you "very much care" about whether we do in fact have free will. There's the contradiction.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: How would my providing an example help you remember what YOU meant ? Because that is what we're talking about here.
quote: But that is the definition you insist on using for plain "free will". And it's certainly not clear that it deserves the "in principle" label. So there is really no way I could hope to work that out - if that is what you meant.
quote: That would be the distinction that you described so poorly that even you couldn't see it ?(Or, apparently remember it, to correct yourself).
quote: Then the fact that I'm not doing that may be the reason why I'm NOT confused.
quote: I see the problem. YOU are getting the context wrong. In the actual context the situation is this:At point A Odin sees that Carl will take choice #4 at point B Odin then intervenes to tell Carl that he will take choice #4 at point B. Given that the situation has now changed is it possible for Carl to choose differently ? Or is he locked into taking choice #4, no matter what ? quote: Good job I did that. Shame you didn't.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Your scenarios leave out the crucial point of Odin telling Carl, and your idea of "possibility" is not the one relevant to the point. Your response is non-productive, completely ignoring the issue under discussion.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: YOUR scenarios did.
quote: I did not say that anything restricted Carl's decisions.
quote: In that case Carl could - because he was told what he would do - decide to do otherwise, invalidating the prophecy, is that not so ? Are are you proposing that he cannot for some other reason ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Unless you are saying that Carl cannot act other than Odin has seen even though the circumstances have changed through Odin telling Carl what he will do, your answer fails to address the issue. IS that what you are saying ?
quote: So - since you say that you are not leaving out the fact that Odin tells Carl what he will do even though you do not mention it - you are indeed saying that Carl is locked into making the choice that Odin has seen despite the change in circumstances. Is that correct ? Or have you decided to drop the fact that Odin tells Carl, evne knowing that it is a crucial point ?
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