The limestone 'mystery' first site in my search for you popped up this explanation from a dr. you guys seem to know.
Yes, we know him, and he certainly doesn't know any geology.
I have a serious question for you ... do you
really buy that stuff?
Quotes from that page:
quote:
Too much limestone exists on earth to have been formed, as evolutionists claim, by present processes such as from shelled creatures and corals.
{Begin long change in edit} Ah, I see that he does provide some "support" for this claim on the following page:
quote:
Had all limestone slowly precipitated in surface waters, as much carbon would have been released into the atmosphere as CO2 as was precipitated as limestone. Limestone contains more than 60,000,000 x 1015 grams of carbon. That amount of carbon in the atmosphere and seas would have made them toxic many times over. Today, the atmosphere and seas contain only (720 + 37,400) x 1015 grams of carbon.
He ignores the fact that not all limestone, and not even the majority of limestone, formed by this precipitation; his estimate of the amount of CO
2 is many orders of magnitude too large. He also ignores processes, such as plant's respiration, that remove carbon from the atmosphere and processes, such as animals forming shells, that recycle carbon. In other words, even if that greatly exaggerated amount of CO
2 were released, the carbon would have gone through the cycle of incorporation into shells and thence into limestone and release many times over. The idea that the carbon released by limestone formation has a simple relationship with the amount of carbon we see today is a basic and simple mathematical error that no PhD in a technical field should ever make.
quote:
Surface waters could not have held the 60,000,000 x 1015 grams of carbon needed to produce today’s limestone without making them hundreds of times too toxic for sea life to exist.
Of course his estimate is still way too large .. and why does he think that it would all have existed in the ocean at one time? Again he ignores carbon that passes through the cycle more than once.
quote:
Wave action and predators can fragment shells and other hard parts of marine organisms. However, as fragments become smaller, it is more difficult to break them into even smaller pieces. With increasingly smaller pieces, the forces required to break them again will eventually become unreasonably large before the pieces reach the size of typical limestone grains.
Never heard of abrasion, has he? What kind of mechanical engineer is he! I'm ashamed that my field has produced such a fool.
quote:
If limestone formed organically in shallow seas (the prevailing view), why would the seafloor slowly subside almost 6 miles to allow these accumulations? Subsidence rates would have to be just right for the millions of years needed for organisms to grow and accumulate to such depths.
As Bugs Bunny says, "wotta maroon!". The prevailing view is that
some limestone formed inorganically in shallow seas. There are plenty of ways in which seafloor can and does subside. And rising water levels, of which we have plenty of evidence, can produce the same effect.
quote:
Evolutionists believe that almost all limestone was produced organically in shallow seas
Nope, as proved by my quotes below.
quote:
Organic limestone is primarily produced within 30 degrees of the equator. However, limestone layers and cement are not concentrated near the equator. Rocks are just as likely to be held together with limestone cement at all latitudes. Obviously, whatever produced limestone was global in scope.
A lot of what does produce limestone is global in scope. However, this is just
too funny; Walt doesn't even consider the possibility that the limestone
moved by the action of plat4e tectonics!!!!!!!
quote:
After limestone, silica (SiO2) is the second most common cementing agent in rocks. Derived from quartz, silica dissolves only 6 parts per million in pure water at 77F (25C). As temperatures rise, more silica goes into solution. At 300F (150C), silica concentrations reach 140 parts per million. If a silica-rich solution occupied the pore space between sand grains, silica would precipitate on their solid surfaces as the water cooled, cementing loose grains into rocks.
Only under high pressure can water reach such high temperatures. The hydroplate theory shows how both high temperature and pressure conditions existed at various locations and times during the flood.
And the mainstream theory also shows how the cementation action happened. The difference is that the mainstream theory also is consistent with the evidence, while Walt's theory is not. But wait, there's more ... absolutely free, we're going to throw in an
internal contradiction if you call now!
quote:
Trees floating in post flood lakes sometimes became saturated with silica-rich solutions. Petrification occurred as the water cooled and silica precipitated on cellulose surfaces.
Now wait a moment .. Walt just claimed that silica could only precipitate under extremely high temperature and pressure, and now he's saying that silica precipitates at atmospheric pressure and near-ambient temperature! This guy's a fruitcake of major proportion!
{End long addition in edit}
quote:
Any satisfactory explanation for sedimentary layers and the world’s fossils they contain must also explain the enclosed limestone layers and limestone cement. This requires answering two questions rarely asked and perhaps never before answered.
rarely asked and perhaps never before answered???????????? Right ... except in every basic geology textbook and in thousands of places in the geologic literature.
quote:
What is the origin of the earth’s limestone? Remarkably, earth’s limestone holds more calcium and carbon than today’s atmosphere, oceans, coal, oil, and living matter combined. A simple, visual examination of limestone grains shows that few are ground-up sea shells or corals, as some believe.
Another unsupported assertion, and technically a "strawman" argument, another logical fallacy. No geologist believes that limestones are exclusively or even always mostly "ground-up sea shells or corals". Limestones vary far too much to be so simply characterized. From "Science and Earth History", Arthur N. Strahler, Prometheus Books, 1999, page 177:
"Of the carbonate rocks, the most important is limestone, a sedimentary rock in which calcite is the predominant mineral. Because either clay minerals or silica (as quartz grains or chert) may be present in considerable proportions, limestones show a wide variation in chemical and physical properties. Limestones range in color from white through gray to black, in texture from obviously granular to very dense.
The most abundant limestones are of marine origin. Some of these are formed by inorganic precipitation; others are by-products of organic activity. The marine limestones show well-developed bedding and may contain abundant fossils. Dark color may be due to finely divided carbon. Many limestones have abundant nodules and inclusions of chert and are described as cherty limestones. An interesting variety of limestone is chalk, a soft, pure-white rock of low density. It is composed of the hard parts of microscopic organisms.
Important accumulations of limestone consist of the densely compacted skeletons of corals and the secretions of associated algae--they are seen forming today as coral reefs along the coasts of warm oceans. Rocks formed of these deposits are referred to as reef limestones. These limestones are in part fragmental, since the action of waves breaks up the coral formations into small fragments tat accumulate among the coral masses or in nearby locations. Limestones composed of broken carbonate particles are recognized as fragmental limestone."
quote:
How were sediments cemented to form rocks? Specifically, how were large quantities of cementing agents (usually limestone and silica) produced, transported, and deposited, often quite uniformly, between sedimentary grains worldwide?
Another question answered in the basic textbooks and literature. For the most part, the sediments were cemented by pressure, dewatering, and
formation of cement in place from dissolved chemicals. Water provides a perfectly reasonable transport agent. The process varies significantly among different limestones. For example, from
Rocks formed from sediment:
"Coral, a small animal (Fig. 6.10, pg. 121), secretes calcite while, symbiotically, an algae secretes lime to harden the calcite into a coral reef. Chalk is the remains of foraminifera, microscopic ocean dwellers that produce calcite shells (Fig. 6.11, pg. 121), which settles to the ocean bottom forming sedimentary layers.
An inorganic limestone that forms when groundwater, saturated in calcium carbonate, is either heated to precipitate the calcium carbonate (Yellowstone Park deposits) or exposed to air where the dissolved CO2 outgasses and then calcium carbonate precipitates (underground caves with stalagmites and stalagtites, Fig. 6.8, pg. 120)"
And, from
Limestone (mineral)
"Limestone ... forms either by direct crystallization from water (usually seawater) or by accumulation of shell and shell fragments. ... Limestone can also be formed without the aid of living organisms. If water containing calcium carbonate is evaporated, the calcium carbonate is left behind and will crystalize out of solution. For example, at Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park, hot water containing calcium carbonate emerges from deep underground. As the hot water evaporates and cools, it can no longer hold all of the calcium carbonate dissolved in it and some of it crystallizes out, forming limestone terraces. Limestone formed from springs is called travertine. Calcium carbonate also precipitates in shallow tropical seas and lagoons where high temperatures cause seawater to evaporate. Such limestone is called oolite. Calcium carbonate that precipitates from water dripping through caves is responsible for the formation of beautiful cave features such as stalactites and stalagmites. ... Diagenesis is the name for those processes that affect sediment after it is deposited and prior to any metamorphism. Two processes of diagenesis are important in the formation of limestone. One is cementation, in which calcium carbonate precipitates in the pore space between the loose grains of sediment and binds them together into a hard compact rock."
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The rest of the page is just Walt making up ad-hoc arguments for his fantasies. It does not address how limestone formed at all.
So, your "reference" is irrelevant and wrong.
How much limestone is there? How much limestone can "uniformism", whatever that is, account for? Exactly how does "uniformism", whatever that is, account of for that limestone and what is wrong with that account? (Include details and references). Exactly how does your theory account for limestone?
[This message has been edited by JonF, 02-07-2004]
[This message has been edited by JonF, 02-07-2004]
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