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Author Topic:   Noah's Flood and the Geologic Layers (was Noah's shallow sea)
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 219 (86738)
02-16-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by simple
02-16-2004 5:07 PM


Re: it's stompin time!
quote:
when you look at it from what had been conventional evolutionary tinted glasses, everything only fits without God's flood. Assuming a flood, we simply have to expand our minds to realize the scale of violence that must have occured. Stop looking at the geoillogical column as some order of self creation, and it may be a start.
We can realize the violence. The fact that we don't see the result of such violence in the geologic record brings us to the conclusion that the violence never occured. What would be the result of such violence, according to you? Finely separated sediments and hundreds of feet of limestone don't seem to support this.
And also, your whole position that pre-flood rates were different rings very hollow. Do you have any evidence that the rates were different. Do you have proof that the rates were not SLOWER than they are now? The rates could have been slower, which would mean the earth is much older than we think. So if rates could have been slower in the past, can I make the argument that the earth MUST be 50 billion years old? I have just as much evidence for 50 billion years as you have for 6,000. Simply stating that rates were different is not enough, you must have evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by simple, posted 02-16-2004 5:07 PM simple has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13017
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 212 of 219 (86743)
02-16-2004 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by simple
02-16-2004 5:07 PM


Re: it's stompin time!
Hi, simple,
I know you'd prefer that this thread remain in the [forum=-7] forum, but this style of debate really doesn't belong in the main topic forums. I'm moving this thread to Free For All. Please remember you're no longer permitted to participate in the main topic forums.

--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by simple, posted 02-16-2004 5:07 PM simple has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13017
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 213 of 219 (86744)
02-16-2004 6:03 PM


Thread moved here from the Geology and the Great Flood forum.

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 219 (86818)
02-16-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by simple
02-16-2004 4:18 PM


Re: geo ruling in.
simple, you really are a clueless clown.
In message #205 you cut'n'paste a piece by Dave Matson which is actually explaining the geological column and refuting Hovind's (and your) ignorant assertions about the geological column.
Then your give a cut'n'paste from that creationist liar Woodmorappe who whines that he can't access the geological data which identifies approximately 20 sites where the complete geological column is intact and identifiable. But you can read Glenn Morton's article and discover the full extent of the geological column for yourself.
Now, be a good little troll and tell us when the Noachian flood occurred. We have ice core data going back many years now. We could compare your fantastic pre-flood and post-flood worlds if you tell us when your flood supposedly happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by simple, posted 02-16-2004 4:18 PM simple has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4457 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 215 of 219 (86924)
02-17-2004 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by simple
02-16-2004 5:07 PM


Not simple, just stupid
quote:
Only if you assume the old world was no different, which, really in effect is assuming there was no old pre flood world. Of course it would have been different.
What logical reason do we have to assume that it WAS different, especially when the evidence suggests that it was?
quote:
Of course some things would be very similar. Also, these "sedimentary structures, volcanic layers" are you imagining them as pre flood?
I can hardly imagine something as 'pre-flood' when you haven't even told me what the flood deposits would look like. How can a geologist distinguish between them?
quote:
quote:
There are simply too many changing environments, not to mention later deformation and faulting that juxtaposed the beds
when you look at it from what had been conventional evolutionary tinted glasses, everything only fits without God's flood. Assuming a flood, we simply have to expand our minds to realize the scale of violence that must have occured. Stop looking at the geoillogical column as some order of self creation, and it may be a start.
Again - what logical reason do we have for assuming a flood, especially when there is no evidence for one?!?
quote:
Actally, you have I think a few extra weeks, if we want to get technical! A 'global end of life one great year' geology is one I propose that is better at accounting foe what we see, than the passe way it has tried to be explained by the common ancestor suppositions theories.
A few extra weeks are not going to solve the problem - and yeah, I want to get technical. Where is the flood boundary? Where are the flood formations, or those that can be interpreted as being created by the flood? Oh, and cut the crap about 'common ancestor suppositions theories' - we're not debating evolution here, we're discussing the validity of the flood.
quote:
Noah lived I think about 5 hundred years in the old world, as did his sons for some time as well. Then he lived somewhere around 3 hundred years in our new world as well. So why would I say he was insane, or a liar? When we rule out what happened, and assume a self made order, we are incapable of seeing the 'writing on the wall' (or rocks in this case).
Irrelevent. The bible is NOT the final word on the geology of this planet - so yes, you could say that Noah was insane, a liar, or NEVER EXISTED. The rocks do not lie - and they DO NOT SUPPORT A GLOBAL FLOOD. Until you can present something more than "the bible says so", I have to assume that you are completely ignorant about the very basics of geology. I've said it before - faith may be able to move mountains, but it will never make a mountain lie about its origins.
quote:
Boundary? Where could we safely say that the world ending event did not effect? Tell me, and we'll talk about some 'boundary'.
So the entire geological column as we see it today was created by the flood? There is no remenant of the 'pre-flood' rocks? You're not weaseling out of this, simple - either tell me where the boundary is, or tell me that the geological column is entirely a result of the flood. There are no other options.
quote:
In effect trying to put up a boundry to the effects of the flood seems like trying to put up a barrier and limit it's effect. Especially if one is to look at similar looking creatures, then go on and assume they evolved into each other, and use that anti creation logic to project an imagined old age as a concequence to this desired evolving.
Oh, shut the hell up about evolution already! You are trying to divert the topic of this thread, i.e. the validity of the flood and the existance/non-existance of the resultant deposits. Please stop wandering off topic into irrelevent areas.
quote:
I could buy a 'missing link' with a fact and still have more than enough left to trounce your old world, old age, old hat theory.
This is the best you can do? If you're so confident, why haven't you trounced us already, simple? I can tell you why - because you're desperately clinging to an out-dated, disproved, tired old notion that just has to be true, and you can't admit to yourself that you have NOTHING to back it up bar an ancient religious text. And the saddest thing is that you can't even accept that you might, just might be wrong about this; that perhaps all the scientists and geologists here, who spend long years studying the subject and certainly know more about it than you, might know what they're talking about. Such arrogance.
So I dare you - post something that shows why we should assume that a flood occurred, other than the bible. If you can, I will concede that you may be right and bow out of this thread. If you can't, I will declare that you are basing your ideas on an invalid assumption, and essentially talking out your arse.
The Rock Hound

"How can I believe in God? I answer to a higher power than him."

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 Message 207 by simple, posted 02-16-2004 5:07 PM simple has not replied

  
Stormdancer
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 219 (86988)
02-17-2004 12:16 PM


Please forgive me if this has already been discussed but I didn't read all the posts,
Himalaya-Karakoram-Tibet region among the international geophysical community.
The Himalaya and Tibet region is a mountain-plateau system that was formed when the Indian and Asian continents collided during Cenozoic time. It is a "natural laboratory" for scientists studying the geophysical and geological processes involved in collisional tectonics as well as the effects of high mountains and mountain-building processes on climate and the environment. http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/EOSsokhabi.html
Error
Leaf morphotyping
we don’t have a very clear picture of the timing of the uplift of the Tibetan Plateau.
A recent research project, led by geologists from Britain’s Open University, provides some additional data that helps to establish the timing of uplift of part of the plateau. Spicer et al., (2003) have studied Middle Miocene (ca. 15 m.y.) leaves from volcanic ash-rich lake sediments in the Namling region of southern Tibet. The fossiliferous rocks are now situated at 4300 to 4600 m elevation. By careful description of a wide range of leaf morphological features, and comparison with existing data sets, they have determined that the leaves grew in a setting with a mean annual temperature of around 6.8 C. Based on comparisons with Miocene climate models, and with other leaf studies on similar-aged rocks formed at close to sea level in Japan, the authors conclude that the Namling leaves grew at an elevation of close to 4600 m.
Spicer et al. propose that the Namling region, along with most of southern Tibet, has been at an elevation of around 5000 m since at least the Middle Miocene; however they are careful to point out that some parts of the existing plateau may have been elevated earlier, and some parts later.
The Taman Negara is a grandmother to the rest of the world’s rainforests. During the Ice Ages, when immense glaciers covered much of the Earth, Malaysia was blessed with a location far enough away from the ice that its forest started to develop 130 million years ago - far earlier than forests of Africa and Latin America.
The Tama Negara’s age explains why it is considered to be one of the richest natural environments on earth with 10,000 species of plants, 350 species of birds, 100 types of snakes, 1,000 varieties of butterflies, perhaps 150,000 kinds of insects and 140 types of animals - including bears, elephants, leopards, tapirs, tigers, deer, wild cattle, pigs, rhinoceros, and numerous species of lizards. Within its confines is Gunung Tahan, the highest mountain in west Malaysia.
The Taman Negara rain forest in Malaysia is said to be the world's oldest rain forest. Untouched by ice age glaciers,
the rain forest has stayed essentially the same for the last 130 million years.
Within its confines is Gunung Tahan, the highest mountain in west Malaysia. This case study examines the impact of tourism on the Taman Negara rain forest and its ancestral inhabitants.
Earth's oldest living inhabitant "Methuselah" at 4,767 years, has lived more than a millennium longer than any other tree.
[URL=http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/intro.html]http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/intro.html
Bristlecone pine groves are found at elevations up to 11,000 feet (3352m) in six states, in both national forests and unappropriated public lands. Public interest had to be heightened to control the depredations, and had become urgent.
On dry windswept mountaintops of the Great Basin in the western United States grow earth's oldest living inhabitants, the bristlecones (Pinus longaeva, Pinus aristata).
Many of the trees living today were seedlings when the pyramids were being constructed, mature in the time of Christ, and ancient patriarchs today. Bristlecones occur in only six western states, but of these the oldest are found at the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in the White Mountains of California. http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/intro.html
Bristlecone pine groves are found at elevations up to 11,000 feet (3352m) in six states, in both national forests and unappropriated public lands. Public interest had to be heightened to control the depredations, and had become urgent.
On dry windswept mountaintops of the Great Basin in the western United States grow earth's oldest living inhabitants, the bristlecones (Pinus longaeva, Pinus aristata).
Many of the trees living today were seedlings when the pyramids were being constructed, mature in the time of Christ, and ancient patriarchs today. Bristlecones occur in only six western states, but of these the oldest are found at the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in the White Mountains of California.
[]http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/intro.html
Bristlecone pine groves are found at elevations up to 11,000 feet (3352m) in six states, in both national forests and unappropriated public lands. Public interest had to be heightened to control the depredations, and had become urgent.
On dry windswept mountaintops of the Great Basin in the western United States grow earth's oldest living inhabitants, the bristlecones (Pinus longaeva, Pinus aristata).
Many of the trees living today were seedlings when the pyramids were being constructed, mature in the time of Christ, and ancient patriarchs today. Bristlecones occur in only six western states, but of these the oldest are found at the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in the White Mountains of California. http://www.sonic.net/bristlecone/intro.html
Bristlecone pine groves are found at elevations up to 11,000 feet (3352m) in six states, in both national forests and unappropriated public lands. Public interest had to be heightened to control the depredations, and had become urgent.
On dry windswept mountaintops of the Great Basin in the western United States grow earth's oldest living inhabitants, the bristlecones (Pinus longaeva, Pinus aristata).
Many of the trees living today were seedlings when the pyramids were being constructed, mature in the time of Christ, and ancient patriarchs today. Bristlecones occur in only six western states, but of these the oldest are found at the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest in the White Mountains of California.

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by JonF, posted 02-21-2004 6:24 PM Stormdancer has not replied

  
alacrity fitzhugh
Member (Idle past 4310 days)
Posts: 194
Joined: 02-10-2004


Message 217 of 219 (87044)
02-17-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by simple
02-16-2004 5:35 PM


Re: 2nd try was at least readable
quote:
"So you know him"
Why dont the next time quote the whole statement son.From reading what you said and walt has postulated,I have come to the conclusion(thanks so far to you two)god is an illusionist.
quote:
"true you have no proof im failing,or that Im young
Yes I do your post kid
quote:
"Reveals an intelligence of such superiority that compared with it,all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection"Einstien
Now are you trying to compare yourself to Einstien.That does once again show your age
How about
"As flies to wanton boys,are we to the gods,they kill us for their sport"
or"The greatest tragedy in human history was the the hijacking of morality by religion"
Or "science could disprove religion by simply ignoring it.As far as I'm aware no one has disproven zues or thor and they have very few followers now"All from Arthur C. Clarke(try reading times eye)
Simply show me the proof by not using what ifs our maybe it came from...Facts just the facts is that to hard for you simple. quote
better to be presumptous than ignorant.What is more simple than asking you for proof.Maybe you can not back up yourself with out what ifs!
[Fix quoting. Open quote=[quote], close quote=[/quote]. This isn't rocket science, plus there's a preview button that actually displays your errors in red! --Admin]
[This message has been edited by Admin, 02-17-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by simple, posted 02-16-2004 5:35 PM simple has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4457 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 218 of 219 (87201)
02-18-2004 6:59 AM


Bump - hey, Simple!
bump bump bump...
Hello? Simple?

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 189 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 219 of 219 (87918)
02-21-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Stormdancer
02-17-2004 12:16 PM


arth's oldest living inhabitant "Methuselah" at 4,767 years, has lived more than a millennium longer than any other tree.
Yup ... but nothing compared to the Oldest Living Organism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Stormdancer, posted 02-17-2004 12:16 PM Stormdancer has not replied

  
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