Darwinism, education, materialism's fatal flaw

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Don't have to. Try an experiment. Imagine a red Hummer. Close your eyes and see if you still see a red Hummer. Now if a neurosurgeon were to poke around in your brain would he find anything which is your red Hummer? So the mind has properties that the brain does not possess.

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Imagine the file redhummer.jpg. Open that file with a hex editor and you will see totally unitelligible (to you) hexadecimal symbols. you will not be able to find "a red hummer" in any of these symbols. Does that imply that a .jpg file has properties computers do not?

We don't know how it is we have a sense of self. It's a complete mystery. Consciousness is a mystery. To say that a brain is a computer is an unwarranted assumption.

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We don't know how it is we have a sense of self. It's a complete mystery. Consciousness is a mystery. To say that a brain is a computer is an unwarranted assumption.

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It is not unwarranted - that is the nearest purely material analog we have and it is quite likely to be on the money. Consciousness is not a mystery merely becuase you find it mysterious.We still have no reason to introduce non-materialist assumptions.

Yeah, its mysterious because we don't know who or what the hell the thinker is behind the thought!

You speak of consciousness as though it were a minor little addition that the brain has and that computers do not have--that computers are just like brains--oh, except for this little matter of consciousness.

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You speak of consciousness as though it were a minor little addition that the brain has and that computers do not have--that computers are just like brains--oh, except for this little matter of consciousness.

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Specifically, I have previously mentioned that I think many mammals have a first person experience almost entirely identical to ours, and that I think the difference ebtween silicon and biological brains is one of quantity, not quality. As faar as I am concerned consciousness is indeed a trivial matter.

And your evidence?

Hey Mike, Thanks for the reply:Object A would represent the brain, object B would represent the mind. I am suggesting that it can be shown that the brain and mind are seperate entities in that properties can be assigned to the mind that do not apply to the brain and vice versa.Sorry for the double speak, I sometimes write these messages when I am under some pressure from other areas of my life to "get the heck off the computer" if you know what I mean.Dennis

Hey LM,Welcome back. How was Christmas at your place? I have to say it was most probably my families finest hour in spite of the tension.I grant your analogy except for one detail. Notice I said "imagine" not "look at". For your analogy to properly mirror mine you would have to shut down the monitor. At that point if the EVC forum webpage still appeared, I am sure you will agree that something "else" is at work.Dennis

Yes, it is fair to say a jpeg file is not that same thing as a computer and vice versa.

It just so happens that my husband is finishing up his PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience in a couple of months, so I have a very knowlegeable brain to pick for this reply.In addition, he has specifically studied visual perception and memory, so this is right up his alley. On to it...

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Don't have to. Try an experiment. Imagine a red Hummer. Close your eyes and see if you still see a red Hummer. Now if a neurosurgeon were to poke around in your brain would he find anything which is your red Hummer? So the mind has properties that the brain does not possess.

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Go to the web and find an image of a red Hummer.Now turn off your computer monitor.Now, have an IT technition poke around in your computer's memory files. Would they find a red Hummer?There is nothing in your brain that is red, mechanical, compensation for a small penis, or has poor gas mileage. However, there are neural codes that represent some or all of these aspects of a red Hummer in your brain.

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These secondary qualities to our experience seem to indicate something beyond the physical.

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No, that doesn't follow.If a person is awake during brain surgery, as they often are, a neurosurgeon can induce the patient to experience sounds, smells, visions, and a miriad of emotional states (including religious extacy) by stimulating various parts of the brain. Similarly, we find that when certain specific parts of the brain are damaged in humans and other mammals, specific deficits in function or changes in behavior are consistently observed. Again similarly, certain chemicals and drugs affect the brain in the same way, changing behavior and leading to similar experience among those in a group.What this strongly suggests is that behavior and thought originate in the physical brain.

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I am suggesting that it can be shown that the brain and mind are seperate entities in that properties can be assigned to the mind that do not apply to the brain and vice versa.

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Let us apply this analogy to other systems.Can it be shown that the heart and circulation are separate entities in that properties can be assigned to circulation that do not apply to the heart and vice versa?Can it be shown that the stomach and digestion are separate entities in that properties can be assigned to digestion that do not apply to the stomach and vice versa?If you cut into Michael Jordan's muscles, do you find the game of basketball?

Hello Schrafinator:You write:

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If a person is awake during brain surgery, as they often are, a neurosurgeon can induce the patient to experience sounds, smells, visions, and a miriad of emotional states (including religious extacy) by stimulating various parts of the brain. Similarly, we find that when certain specific parts of the brain are damaged in humans and other mammals, specific deficits in function or changes in behavior are consistently observed. Again similarly, certain chemicals and drugs affect the brain in the same way, changing behavior and leading to similar experience among those in a group.What this strongly suggests is that behavior and thought originate in the physical brain.

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So (hang with me now, don't get upset, just an analogy) I assume you love your husband, yes? Could a neurosurgeon induce you to stop loving your husband? Could a neurosurgeon make you into me and cause you to begin loving my wife? If so, have you told your husband this. (Sorry)I am not denying there is an intimate tie-in between the physical brain and the mental states we experience; but when you start to get down to what is YOU and only YOU, it begins to at least get a little fuzzier, you agree?Dennis

Could I get an appointment with your husband for a dose of this "religious xtacy" stuff, and supersize it with fries please?Seriously, I would like to get you and/or your husband's take on NDE's if you get a chance.ThanksDennis

Dennis,

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Could I get an appointment with your husband for a dose of this "religious xtacy" stuff, and supersize it with fries please?

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I think you've had enough already, pal.regards,
Esteban Hambre