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Author Topic:   Darwinism, education, materialism's fatal flaw
dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 278 (170357)
12-21-2004 8:53 AM


My motives here are two-fold: (a) I hope to spur others to think about the conclusions they may have drawn from their experiences and the info they have studied. (b) I hope, in so doing, to be motivated to do the same. And I can tell you it is working; I have spent more time reading and studying since joining this discussion than I did the entire two years previous.
So, with all of that in mind, here are my questions:
1) What should the goals of a college education be?
2) Has naturalism and materialism unduly influenced those goals over the last 100 years?
3) What is the fatal flaw of Darwinian evolutionary, materialistic and naturalistic logic?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 9:40 AM dshortt has replied
 Message 4 by Quetzal, posted 12-21-2004 10:05 AM dshortt has replied
 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 12-22-2004 9:24 AM dshortt has replied
 Message 6 by dshortt, posted 12-22-2004 10:36 AM dshortt has not replied
 Message 11 by Syamsu, posted 12-22-2004 11:03 AM dshortt has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 278 (170360)
12-21-2004 9:25 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 278 (170370)
12-21-2004 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dshortt
12-21-2004 8:53 AM


What should the goals of a college education be?
To enhance your knowledge, effectively prepare for adult life, and try to finagle a threesome while the girls are still feeling adventurous.
Has naturalism and materialism unduly influenced those goals over the last 100 years?
I don't see why it would have.
What is the fatal flaw of Darwinian evolutionary, materialistic and naturalistic logic?
You're working under the assumption that there is, in fact, a fatal flaw. I don't see one. If you do, please tell us. I assure you, the suspense is killing us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dshortt, posted 12-21-2004 8:53 AM dshortt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by dshortt, posted 12-22-2004 10:52 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 4 of 278 (170381)
12-21-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dshortt
12-21-2004 8:53 AM


Well, since I induced you to open this thread, it probably behooves me to respond to it. To be honest, I doubt I can do any better than Lithodid-man.
1) What should the goals of a college education be?
Although I think the answer depends on what the students' individual interests might be, generically a college education prepares a young adult for the rest of his/her life by exposing them to a wide variety of views, information, and ideas. In addition, obviously, college generally has a significant impact on subsequent work, job prospects, and future by providing the basic training needed in whatever area of endeavor the student finally decides upon. Ultimately, college may permit a student to define or identify their interests and life's vocation/avocation (although some of us old farts are still trying to figure it out...). If you will, in many respects it is the final transition between youth and adulthood.
2) Has naturalism and materialism unduly influenced those goals over the last 100 years?
Outside the sciences, naturalism has had probably zero impact on those goals. Materialism OTOH, is not something that is instilled in college. Rather, that is something that derives from the larger society in which the student moves. As the society becomes more materialistic (at least in the West), the expectation is that college graduates will be able to take fuller advantage of the material culture. I would submit that the rise in popularity of religious-based colleges is a reaction to the secularization of society, not the other way around.
This causes, btw, serious problems in the developing world when rising expectations fostered by college education crashes headlong into the reality of fundamental or even structural lack of opportunity.
3) What is the fatal flaw of Darwinian evolutionary, materialistic and naturalistic logic?
Dunno. I personally don't feel there is one. I'm pretty sure if such an achilles heel existed, someone would have pointed it out somewhere over the last 150 years of trying. For a brief time, it appeared heredity and genetics would sound the death knell for evolution, but with the neo-darwinian synthesis, that problem's pretty much solved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dshortt, posted 12-21-2004 8:53 AM dshortt has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 5 of 278 (170689)
12-22-2004 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dshortt
12-21-2004 8:53 AM


Begging the question?
1) What should the goals of a college education be?
To educate yourself in a structured environment.
2) Has naturalism and materialism unduly influenced those goals over the last 100 years?
Only if you are not trying to educate yourself by these principles. All scientists would probably say no because their practice is based on naturalism. If you believe otherwise then you should join Maestro in the biblical claim in science thread.
3) What is the fatal flaw of Darwinian evolutionary, materialistic and naturalistic logic?
And this is called begging the question. You assume there is a fatal flaw. Nice try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dshortt, posted 12-21-2004 8:53 AM dshortt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by dshortt, posted 12-22-2004 10:55 AM Jazzns has replied

  
dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 278 (170700)
12-22-2004 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dshortt
12-21-2004 8:53 AM


This is a reply from Lithodid-Man in another thread to the same questions I started this thread with. The first quote here is my followup question which he proceeds to answer in the rest of the post.
So there is something "better" we should all strive for? What exactly does it look like? Would that bettering of oneself include a search for ultimate truth, ie, "the way things really are"? And will the tools of Darwinism and naturalism lead us there?
These are excellent questions. Again I have to say I can only speak for myself and stick to discreet definitions of the terms. I think about these questions a great deal.
I base my personal philosophy (applicable to me) on the idea that the unexamined life is not worth living. If I do something I ponder why, if I hold an opinion a reduce it to basic arguments. If I plan an action I like to (if possible) consider possible outcomes. I operate under the idea that there is truth to be found pretty much anywhere you look provided you can spot the baby in the bathwater. In these things I am a better ME than I was in the past. My college education has helped this as I was exposed to new ideas that I could sort through. Even the concepts and ideas rejected contribute to my improvement. Now I am not claiming complete success in the above at all, not even close. I am working on self-improvement this way and it works for me.
The slippery slope I navigate with this is at what point I begin to feel myself 'worth more' than another who doesn't examine themselves. I can claim it is a personal philosophy but this breaks down after a few logic steps. Especially when viewpoints come into conflict.
I am going to discuss a few examples to make this point. I have a close relative who is very similar to me in many ways. As kids we did the same things, etc. In school he was the golden child, I was second best (in our family). After we moved apart we communicated often and would spend hours debating just about everything. Now, almost 20 years later, he hoards guns, spews on endlessly about the UN, One world government, etc. etc. He calls himself a "tax patriot" and has a giant poster of Timothy McVeigh on his wall with "American patriot" printed on it. He scares the hell out of me. However, we continue to talk (much less often). Invariably when he talks the conversations drifts to religion and politics. He always starts with this "I was thinking one day about.... and went down to the library to look it up.... and no one thinks for themselves....I form my own opinions..." At the same time I am googling his points and finding them word for word from a printable Birch Society pdf or some such thing. He pretends to have thought this out but is reading. Now the question arises, whose opinion is worth more? Not based on content, but based on how much actual thought went into it. So I can think "well I don't agree but I respect your opinion" or I can say, "Screw your opinion you mindless jackass, you didn't look anything up and you are wasting my time spouting this lunacy, there is no law requiring all presidents to pledge allegiance to the UN, no mandatory barcodes on the hands of EU members, etc". So I am forced to be polite and dishonest with myself or admit I am an intellectual snob of sorts.
So now, full-circle, this is why I jumped on you about the bird issue. Maybe unfairly, if so I am sorry. But I tend to get extremely frustrated when I take the time to learn and study something then have my work trod upon by an assertion cut from a creationist page or book and the proponent putting their viewpoint up as equal to mine
I have another relative, a cousin, who has spent a good portion of his adult life in prison and jail. While he is an intelligent guy, he just does stupid things. He will get out of jail and decide he wants to get high. Now my point here isn't to judge him for that although I don't understand it. If I were him, given my constant examination of consequence, and wanted to do what he does I would cautiously make contacts, remain in the privacy of my home, or such thing. He goes out to a bar, gets severely liquored up, then buys his garbage, and does it parked on the side of the street. So he inevitably goes right back to prison. In comparing our two personalities, the conclusion I draw is that he lacks the ability to use past events as tools to predict the future. He is always quite surprised by how short his freedom lasts yet seems incapable of changing it. So I see him on the far side of the "self examined life" spectrum and wonder if he prepresents an oddity or is actually more toward the norm of the repeat criminal population.
Would that bettering of oneself include a search for ultimate truth, ie, "the way things really are"? And will the tools of Darwinism and naturalism lead us there?
I don't believe that ultimate truth itself has much to do with betterment. However, the search might. Provided it is a search. I think people can better themselves in other ways besides ultimate truth. A martial arts master might strive their entire lives for some kind of unreachable perfect balance that is purely internal. In the process they achieve personal happiness on some level. Someone might study stained glass making and find the same thing, I don't know. Whether it be physical, religious, academic, in all cases there are people examining their lives.
The tools of Darwinism and naturalism are leading us to a better understanding of the processes that led to the natural world as it appears today. I wouldn't call it ultimate truth, but it does help explain the "way things are". Not accepting supernatural arguments has gotton us a very long way. To the value of this perspective it is irrelevant whether or not 'GOD' exists. If I say lightening is the work of God and therefore unknowable then I get nowhere in explaining it. If I believe God created a very naturalistic world that runs on a set of laws I can learn and understand then I am on the way to understanding lightening. The same goes if I believe in pure naturalism.
Hey Lithodid-Man:
I really like what you have to say here. I think in general it would be good if we all could live as you describe. I have a brother-in-law who worked for us (my wife, his sister) for 5 years. We provided him a nice place to work, a good product, he came and went pretty much as he pleased, and was payed well. I finally had to fire him (I probably should have done it much earlier, like his first week), and he proceeded to go to work for a local competitor of ours with the specific intent of taking accounts away from our company. Now the dilemma comes up; we are having Christmas dinner with his family. If Darwinian, naturalistic logic is taken to it's ultimate conclusion, there is nothing wrong with what my brother-in-law did to us. I should accept it as his interpretation of reality. But then my interpretation of reality might entail ending his miserable little life over Christmas turkey. (Trust me, I have no such aspirations, just making a philosophical point). Now in Christiandom, we are called to "love the sinner and hate the sin" which would seem to imply I should be polite at this dinner, but I don't have to gush all over him as if nothing has happened. Which version seems more like "the way things ought to be"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by dshortt, posted 12-21-2004 8:53 AM dshortt has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 11:21 AM dshortt has replied
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 12-22-2004 11:56 AM dshortt has replied
 Message 16 by mikehager, posted 12-22-2004 12:03 PM dshortt has not replied
 Message 41 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-23-2004 2:21 PM dshortt has not replied
 Message 42 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-23-2004 2:21 PM dshortt has replied

  
dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 278 (170705)
12-22-2004 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
12-21-2004 9:25 AM


Thank you!

This message is a reply to:
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dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 278 (170706)
12-22-2004 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dan Carroll
12-21-2004 9:40 AM


Please see message 6.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 9:40 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 278 (170708)
12-22-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Quetzal
12-21-2004 10:05 AM


Please see message 6.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Quetzal, posted 12-21-2004 10:05 AM Quetzal has not replied

  
dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 278 (170709)
12-22-2004 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jazzns
12-22-2004 9:24 AM


Re: Begging the question?
Please see message 6.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 12-22-2004 9:24 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Jazzns, posted 12-22-2004 3:58 PM dshortt has replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 11 of 278 (170712)
12-22-2004 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by dshortt
12-21-2004 8:53 AM


1. to gain a lot of knowledge about things
2. perhaps materialism and naturalism have led to much boredom about knowledge. Supposedly we now know basically with much precision how the universe got started, anybody excited about it? I think not. The most favourite words for describing the universe of scientists are: bizarre, weird, strange, odd. That's scientists using their own words, not reporting of science by journalists. Materialism / naturalism makes it so that no connection is made, or is allowed to be made, to "what's it all mean", or something like that, hence infinite boredom ensues.
3. That they ignore decisions. Whether it is colonalial policy, environmental policy, or the impact of contingent historical happenstances, or massive determinatons at the beginning of the universe which determine half of everything, they ignore, they neglect, they don't know.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 278 (170713)
12-22-2004 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by dshortt
12-22-2004 10:36 AM


So why is Christianity required to say to yourself, "Eh... why ruin dinner?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by dshortt, posted 12-22-2004 10:36 AM dshortt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by dshortt, posted 12-22-2004 11:36 AM Dan Carroll has replied

  
dshortt
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 278 (170716)
12-22-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2004 11:21 AM


Hey Dan,
It's not of course required, but the question put in a different way would be why would ruining the dinner be "wrong" if my neurons and chemical reactions cause me to act upon this feeling of having been "wronged"? The obvious answer here is that moral relativism is a natural, logical outcome of Darwinistic, naturalistic logic. But even that is not the most fatal flaw of naturalistic logic.
Dennis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 11:21 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 11:52 AM dshortt has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 278 (170722)
12-22-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by dshortt
12-22-2004 11:36 AM


How's that the case? Let's assume you have six people at the dinner... you, your wife, your brother-in-law, and three innocent bystanders. If you ruin dinner, then the night is spoiled for everyone. Including you. Therefore, it is detrimental to your own interests to confront him over Christmas dinner. So it doesn't make much sense to do so, even from a relativistic stance.
Taking it up another notch... let's say two of the bystanders have their own feud going. If they go ahead and start in on each other, then there's no incentive against you and your brother-in-law coming to blows, is there? And then they wind up caught up in your feud as well as their own, which is detrimental to them. So it's in everyone's best interest if they politely smile and enjoy some stuffing.
Carrying through moral relativism doesn't mean the laws of polite society go out the window. You maintain them, even if they're immediately inconvenient to you, because in the long run they'll help you out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by dshortt, posted 12-22-2004 11:36 AM dshortt has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 278 (170723)
12-22-2004 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by dshortt
12-22-2004 10:36 AM


quote:
I have a brother-in-law who worked for us (my wife, his sister) for 5 years. We provided him a nice place to work, a good product, he came and went pretty much as he pleased, and was payed well. I finally had to fire him (I probably should have done it much earlier, like his first week), and he proceeded to go to work for a local competitor of ours with the specific intent of taking accounts away from our company. Now the dilemma comes up; we are having Christmas dinner with his family. If Darwinian, naturalistic logic is taken to it's ultimate conclusion, there is nothing wrong with what my brother-in-law did to us. I should accept it as his interpretation of reality
There is no time for a long discussion on the nature of morality here, but let me say that you are dead wrong. "Darwinian naturalistic logic" doesn't say that there is nothing wrong in what your brother-in-law did. Indeed to the extent that Darwinism addresses morality (not a great amount - look up "naturalistic fallacy") it would suggest that he was wrong.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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