COVID vaccine works - we're saved!

xongsmith:

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Of course - but it was the SHITFUCK's introduction of the term "consensus" that I took issue with.
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Of course the real world is never wrong, but the consensus of it is can be, because that is a humanly-determined characteristic.
The whole engine of the Scientific Method is to determine the real world, not the consensus of what people think it is.*
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* unless it is an actual scientific investigation of the various consensuses in the historical human world.

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xongsmith will now explain to us what the real world is. Then he will explain why there is no God and why vaccines are not 100% effective.

Kleinman:

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The medical board yanked my medical license just like the publisher yanked these two papers.

AZPaul3:

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They are not going to yank your papers since you paid them to be published. And you do not have a valid medical license in California. You can not practice. You are here under false premises. You are not a physician of any sort. You are a demented doctor wannabe with a diploma from a degree mill and delusions of your own genius.

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I paid the "open access" fee so cheapskates like you wouldn't have another thing to whine about. The publication of these papers cost me nothing and if they are wrong, they would be retracted, but they aren't retracted. And you could easily check the California Medical Board and see if I am licensed. So not only are you a cheapskate, you are lazy. Why don't you check the Department of Consumer Affairs and see if I'm also a licensed engineer? You won't because you are lazy.

Theodoric:

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Sadly enough the nut job does have a valid medical license.
DCA - Search Details

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And a valid engineering license. So, when are you going to tell us what your wife tells her patients when she starts them on antibiotics? She does have a valid medical license, doesn't she?

AZPaul3:

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I stand corrected.

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You need a lot of correction.

Kleinman:

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xongsmith will now explain to us what the real world is. Then he will explain why there is no God and why vaccines are not 100% effective.

xongsmith:

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the fuck i will. i refuse except maybe standing over your deathbed as you die.
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you deserve ZERO replies and should be shunned, left on a melting glacier in the Arctic seas.

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xongsmith is having difficulty explaining anything. But I'll explain how descent with modification and adaptation works, the Kishony and Lenski experiments, and why these experiments take a billion replications (reproductions if using Darwin's terminology) for each adaptive step (mutation) in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.
For a single selection pressure:
The basic science and mathematics of random mutation and natural selection
And for multiple simultaneous selection pressures:
The mathematics of random mutation and natural selection for multiple simultaneous selection pressures and the evolution of antimicrobial drug resistance
Don't worry xongsmith, biologists can't explain it either.

Kleinman:

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If some stranger moves into your home, you can't tell him to leave because he has a right to housing.

Percy:

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What makes you think there's a right to housing?

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Do you think society should be required to pay for someone elses healthcare but not their housing? You like to be generous, with other people's money.

Kleinman:

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Why don't you list for us the major factors that help prevent the spread of these diseases?

Percy:

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If you think it's germane to discussion, please list them for us.

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I'll list them for you if you can explain whether or not they need to be taken into account in any statistical analysis.

Kleinman:

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The nature of my questions should give you a hint that you aren't stating your position.

Percy:

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Your questions mostly imply I have opinions that I've never stated and that I do not hold. Your questions are of the "Are you still beating your wife" variety.

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I'm not asking you if you are still beating your wife, I'm asking you under what conditions someone should be confined if they have a contagious disease. I've given you my opinion on the specific conditions, but you haven't given those conditions.

Kleinman:

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Who should be locked up for engaging in activity that increases the risk of spreading a contagious disease?

Percy:

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And this question is a good example. I never advocated locking anyone up, so why are you asking me this? I said that balancing personal freedoms against public safety is a tough problem, that I have no answers for you, and I've said it several times now.

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Even here in California, they will lock up people with HIV if they have sex with their partner without informing them that they have HIV. So, what are your conditions?

Kleinman:

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...it shows that you don't know under which conditions what some consider a mild disease that is highly contagious can be serious to some people.

Percy:

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If you think those conditions would contribute to the discussion, go ahead and describe them for us.

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I've already given you those conditions and they were also given in the references I gave. Since you don't seem to get the point, I'll repeat them again for you. People with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild. This should be obvious to you. That's why Governor Cuomo from New York made a major blunder when he confined elderly people in rest homes and caused a large number of deaths from Covid.

Kleinman:

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I keep asking this because your answer is so vague. Where do you draw the line where you should confine someone?

Percy:

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I keep saying I have no answers for you. If you have answers please tell us.

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I've already given you many answers based on by experience. When it comes to infectious diseases, whatever you do, you must include close follow-up with the patient. You can't just say, "Take all your medicine" and not give the patient an idea of what should happen during treatment. Statistical data can be useful but if the data is inconclusive such as mask usage, you can't make hard and fast rules based on that data. And I've told you when someone should be confined with an infectious disease. If the person knows they have an infectious disease and still purposely engages in activities that can increase the risk of spreading that disease without others knowing it, lock that person up. If they don't know they have the infectious disease but engage in activities that spread the disease, this person should be notified to cease the activity but not be locked up. Your argument is that people should be required to wear masks. The problem with your argument is that you assume people will wear an effective mask in an appropriate manner. The data does not show this. This shows that people that insist on a general mask mandate have not prepared the public correctly and may well have given people a false sense of security and actually caused an increase in the spread of the disease.

Kleinman:

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Do you think society should be required to pay for someone elses healthcare but not their housing? You like to be generous, with other people's money.

Percy:

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What do you think society's goal should be?

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Read the Bible and you can find out.

Kleinman:

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I'll list them for you if you can explain whether or not they need to be taken into account in any statistical analysis.

Percy:

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Why do you need me to explain anything before you list them?

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It is called preparation. You put the cart before the horse. You show evidence that masks work and then jump to the conclusion that a general mandate should work but you don't consider whether people wear an effective mask appropriately. Do you think you could scrub in for a surgery without any instruction and do it properly? You have to learn how to wash your hands appropriately, learn how to put on sterile gloves in a sterile manner, how a sterile gown must be put on to avoid contamination, how to put on an effective mask in an appropriate manner, and so on. And now you want to prevent the transmission of an airborne disease with a mask alone, without any instruction at all to the population. It shouldn't surprise you that the data doesn't show that this kind of policy has been effective.

Kleinman:

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I'm not asking you if you are still beating your wife, I'm asking you under what conditions someone should be confined if they have a contagious disease.

Percy:

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Are you telling us you don't understand how your questions are "Are you still beating your wife" style questions?

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If you can't tell us what you think the conditions are that someone should be confined for spreading an infectious disease, say so. Instead, you find a line in a paper that you think supports your viewpoint about masks when the same paper has paragraphs saying that there are confounding factors in the analysis.

Kleinman:

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I've given you my opinion on the specific conditions, but you haven't given those conditions.

Percy:

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If you already know the specific conditions, why do you need me to give them to you?

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I'm trying to get you to think about what you propose.

Kleinman:

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Even here in California, they will lock up people with HIV if they have sex with their partner without informing them that they have HIV. So, what are your conditions?

Percy:

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Wasn't that the law that was changed a couple years ago?

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Yes, it was appropriately changed. Even California politicians realize how bad the original law was. What sense was in that law that removed all legal consequences from someone with HIV if they have sex with a partner and don't tell them beforehand that they have HIV?

Kleinman:

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I've already given you those conditions and they were also given in the references I gave.

Percy:

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If you've already told us those conditions, why do you keep asking me what they are?

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To see whether you understand. I don't think you fully appreciate how complex the treatment and prevention of infectious diseases are. It is not always as simple as wearing a mask and getting a vaccination.

Kleinman:

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Since you don't seem to get the point, I'll repeat them again for you. People with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild. This should be obvious to you.

Percy:

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Of course it's obvious to me. I just said the same thing a few messages ago. It's probably obvious to everyone here because it's just common sense.

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It is obvious to you now.

Kleinman:

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That's why Governor Cuomo from New York made a major blunder when he confined elderly people in rest homes and caused a large number of deaths from Covid.

Percy:

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Why do you think it was Cuomo who confined them? Weren't they already there when covid started? What should have been done instead?

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I don't think you fully understand what Cuomo did.
Andrew Cuomo’s Report on Controversial Nursing Home Policy for COVID Patients Prompts More Controversy — ProPublica And Cuomo ordered people hospitalized with Covid be sent to nursing homes.

Kleinman:

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I've already given you many answers based on by experience.

Percy:

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Great. I guess that just about wraps it up, then.

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That's fine. I noticed you had a thread and are a strong advocate for gun control. Since you think that society is obligated to pay for people's health care, I was wondering if you think people have a right of self-defense?

Theodoric:

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Irrelevant to the topic.

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That's as good an excuse as any for your wife not being able to explain what her patients should do when she starts them on antibiotics. You probably shouldn't bring up that your wife is a physician if she doesn't know this basic medical principle.

Kleinman:

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The problem with your (Percy's) argument is that you (Percy) assume people will wear an effective mask in an appropriate manner.

xongsmith:

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Jeezo man, you are fucking shit again! See, you forgot the important part where Percy argues that the people who are in a group of people who wear the masks correctly are more likely to get others to wear them correctly. Even in Message 908 Percy writes:

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xongsmith is going to start an organization called the Society for the Correct Wearing of Masks. He will do that right after he gives us proof that God doesn't exist, why vaccines aren't 100% effective which means he can explain descent with modification and adaptation, the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments, and why it takes a billion reproductions for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiments.

Kleinman:

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Read the Bible and you can find out.

xongsmith:

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which one? the old testament or the new testament? the Torah? the Koran? the Bhagavad Gita? the King James?
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they all say different things depending on how the writers at the time wanted to control their flock.

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The Torah is the first five books of the old testament. The old testament and new testament together form the Bible. Read any of the Torah, old testament, or new testament and you can find out.What makes you think that something isn't controlling you right now?

Kleinman:

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You show evidence that masks work and then jump to the conclusion that a general mandate should work but you don't consider whether people wear an effective mask appropriately. Do you think you could scrub in for a surgery without any instruction and do it properly? You have to learn how to wash your hands appropriately, learn how to put on sterile gloves in a sterile manner, how a sterile gown must be put on to avoid contamination, how to put on an effective mask in an appropriate manner, and so on. And now you want to prevent the transmission of an airborne disease with a mask alone, without any instruction at all to the population. It shouldn't surprise you that the data doesn't show that this kind of policy has been effective.

xongsmith:

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As even I showed, Percy has abundantly demonstrated that EDUCATION is the important factor. You are a SHITFUCKER for lying. Or you are illiterate and cannot read.

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Why don't you show us your education by proving that God doesn't exist? Then you can show us why vaccines are not 100% effective, how descent with modification and adaptation works, how the Kishony and Lenski biological evolutionary experiments work, and why it takes a billion replications for each adaptive mutation in the Kishony and Lenski experiment.

Kleinman:

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The old testament and new testament together form the Bible

xongsmith:

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what is the difference between the Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible? Why are the books of Matthew treated differently? Why isn't the Koran just as good?
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why is the One of some guesstimate of 1500 god stories that you were brought up with the Right One and the other ~1499 stories are wrong?

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You need to ask experts in the Bible about the differences between the Protestant, Jewish, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormon, and Catholic Bibles.Christianity is different from all other religions in that God Himself pays the price for our sins and restores our relationship with God. All other religions claim that the person can do some action and make him/herself acceptable to God. That is a very low view of the holiness of God and the price that had to be paid for our sin.

Kleinman:

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Why don't you show us your education by proving that God doesn't exist?

xongsmith:

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You cannot prove a negative. Even you know that.
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How do you know I don't believe God exists?
I could be a Deist, for all you know.
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Do you have any objective peer-reviewed evidence God exists one way or the other?
There are whole threads here at EvC on Intelligent Design that are more appropriate channels to use.

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I should mention the reason I don't accept the Koran (Islam) as the true faith. If I understand Islam correctly, those believers think if their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds, they go to heaven. That's like saying that if I have a thousand gallons of pure water and add a teaspoon of raw sewage the water is still pure.I have two motives for studying evolution. The first is to understand how drug resistance occurs since this is a problem in my medical practice and throughout the field of medicine. The second is to test whether the theory of evolution refutes my belief in God. Is it really possible that life started in some primordial soup and through a process of descent with modification, we arrived? I didn't know the answer when I first studied this phenomenon but I did have the skills to mathematically model complex physical systems and have had extensive training and experience in thermodynamics. Once I gained some understanding of biological evolution, it became apparent that this type of evolutionary process is impossible, but I did learn how drug resistance evolves. It is only when I point out that universal common descent cannot occur because of the population size required that it drives biologists and atheists crazy. But that's what the mathematical, empirical, and experimental evidence shows. If physicians and farmers ever want to get a handle on antimicrobial drug resistance, herbicide resistance, pesticide resistance, and why cancer treatments fail, they will have to understand how descent with modification and adaptation works. Biologists are not doing their job.

xongsmith:

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Christians also believe that you can go to heaven by repenting and converting on your deathbed. So what?
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So no evidence from you.
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I would have thought that the single first organism would be a sign of God. Kind of like the Fine Structure Constant, without it's value being what it is, enabling life to emerge, would be another sign.
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Meh. Oh well. then. Remain willfully stoopid. It's OK.

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You can even do it like one of the thieves on his cross next to Jesus, but why wait?

Percy:

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What do you think society's goal should be?

Kleinman:

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Read the Bible and you can find out.

Percy:

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Why do you think society should include goals like not suffering witches to live or stoning adulterers?

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You seem to have gotten a very tiny bit out of the Bible. You missed the part where Jesus said, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her". And you still don't understand why STDs are so widespread in the world. If you want to take advice from a witch, that is your choice. Why don't you tell us what good ideas or explanations you have gotten from witches?

Kleinman:

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It is called preparation.

Percy:

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So you're not yet prepared for this discussion.

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Perhaps not. I like it when someone poses a challenging question or idea. It forces me to think. For example, my discussion with you about mask mandates forced me to understand with more precision why the Covid mask mandates did not produce the data that you expect. I'm not the only one that doesn't come to the battle fully prepared. Do you think that people should try and force their will on society when they aren't fully prepared?

Kleinman:

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If you can't tell us what you think the conditions are that someone should be confined for spreading an infectious disease, say so.

Percy:

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Why are you having so much trouble comprehending that no one here is arguing for this?

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Good intentions are not enough to force a policy on society.

Kleinman:

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Instead, you find a line in a paper that you think supports your viewpoint about masks when the same paper has paragraphs saying that there are confounding factors in the analysis.

Percy:

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Why do you think papers invalidate their conclusions by enumerating potential problems and issues that they were already aware of when they drew their conclusions?

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That's the point, Percy. The line that you pull from these papers is not a conclusion, otherwise, they would post the data to support that conclusion. Why the authors would put in such a line is open for debate.

Kleinman:

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I'm trying to get you to think about what you propose.

Percy:

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Why do you keep thinking people have proposed things that they haven't?

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For starters, do you think that people that proposed general mask mandates considered whether the public would wear appropriate masks in an effective manner? And providing an exemption for young children from wearing masks would nullify the effect of a general mask mandate?

Kleinman:

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Even here in California, they will lock up people with HIV if they have sex with their partner without informing them that they have HIV. So, what are your conditions?

Percy:

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Wasn't that the law that was changed a couple years ago?

Kleinman:

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Yes,...

Percy:

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Then why are you asking about arrests being made under a law that is no longer in effect?

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It is an example of good intentions being insufficient in writing a law. It doesn't remove the stigma from someone with HIV and it doesn't prevent an unknowing person from being injured.

Kleinman:

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I don't think you fully appreciate how complex the treatment and prevention of infectious diseases are. It is not always as simple as wearing a mask and getting a vaccination.

Percy:

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Why do you think masks and vaccinations do not reduce the spread and severity of respiratory pandemics?

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We can go around on this as much as you want. Do you think that vaccinations prevent the person from spreading the disease, and do you think that an inappropriate mask worn ineffectively will prevent that person from spreading the disease? Are you aware of the Sabin oral vaccines for polio? They use attenuated viruses to trigger the immune response. These viruses can spread through the population and by descent with modification can become serious disease-causing viruses.
Poliomyelitis

Kleinman:

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Since you don't seem to get the point, I'll repeat them again for you. People with weakened immune systems and comorbidities (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma,...) are at much greater risk from diseases that might be considered mild. This should be obvious to you.

Percy:

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Of course it's obvious to me. I just said the same thing a few messages ago. It's probably obvious to everyone here because it's just common sense.

Kleinman:

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It is obvious to you now.

Percy:

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You're obviously having difficulty following the discussion.

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Point to the first time you wrote about this obvious point. You don't have to limit yourself to this thread.

Kleinman:

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I don't think you fully understand what Cuomo did.
Andrew Cuomo’s Report on Controversial Nursing Home Policy for COVID Patients Prompts More Controversy — ProPublica

Percy:

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I recognize what you're referring to now. I didn't find the policy made under difficult circumstances while New York hospitals were overwhelmed of prohibiting nursing homes from discriminating on the basis of covid status anywhere near as egregious as then hiding the data.

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Even the people of New York found Cuomo's decision-making capability lacking.

Kleinman:

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I noticed you had a thread and are a strong advocate for gun control.

Percy:

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Thanks for the warning that you'll be soiling another thread soon.

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I notice you didn't tell us whether you think that people have a right to self-defense. People do have a right to free medical care paid for by society according to you. Your display of generosity with other people's money is heartwarming.