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Author Topic:   You are.
iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 275 (255868)
10-31-2005 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Christian7
10-31-2005 4:38 PM


Could you be on the determinism route? Like, without God to transcend it all, all we are is a bunch of accidental atoms and in which case how can a bunch of accidental atoms decide that we are a bunch atoms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Christian7, posted 10-31-2005 4:38 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Christian7, posted 10-31-2005 9:05 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 24 of 275 (255947)
11-01-2005 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Christian7
10-31-2005 9:05 PM


In the case of the artificial intelligence it can only know what you programme it to know or be able to know. It can never step outside that, do anything that can't be traced back to the initial conditions.
Its the same with us. Whatever thoughts occur in us due to the instantaneous arrangement of atoms/energy/laws of nature at a particular moment in time, are all the consequence of a prior arrangement and those too a consequence of a prior arrangment. It's an infinite regression all the way back to whatever initial conditions started it off. Thus our thoughts today aren't our own but were guarenteed (as is everthing else - not just thoughts) to happen once the initial conditions...er... initialized.
Similarily, tomorrows thoughts are guarenteed to take place.
Thus, determinism and no absolute thing as 'us'
Unless of course God exists and somehow made a situation where our thoughts can be our own and we actually exist. Like, for instance (as I believe) knowing us in eternity before the initial conditions which set the ball rolling

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 Message 21 by Christian7, posted 10-31-2005 9:05 PM Christian7 has not replied

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 Message 25 by nwr, posted 11-01-2005 7:39 AM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 275 (255953)
11-01-2005 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by nwr
11-01-2005 7:39 AM


Re: Whence determinism?
nwr writes:
I sometimes wonder where people get these strange rigidly deterministic ideas. They surely don't come from any evidence that I have seen.
Elementary my dear nwr There is as far as we know only matter in various forms, energy in various forms, laws of nature. That's the evidence we have. If that is the case, the arrangement of everything at this precise moment is only the interaction of matter/energy/laws. The position everything is in now this instant is a result of the position everything was in in the last instant. There is nothing outside matter/energy/law to cause it to be any other way. IOW given the arrangment of every atom/every 'piece' of energy in the universe two moments ago, the arrangement in this moment is the only arrangement it could be. There is nothing else but matter/energy/laws to provide any other possibility.
Determinism thus and no absolute thing as you. You are just an particular arrangement of matter/energy/laws - which was destined to be.
Which begs the question: how can an pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws arrive at the conclusion that they are a pre-determined arrangement of matter/energy/laws.
No proof of God but close

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 Message 25 by nwr, posted 11-01-2005 7:39 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 11-01-2005 7:58 AM iano has not replied
 Message 28 by nwr, posted 11-01-2005 8:16 AM iano has not replied
 Message 29 by sidelined, posted 11-01-2005 10:38 AM iano has not replied
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-01-2005 2:57 PM iano has not replied

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