EvC Forum: You are.

Guido, you only win if we stay on topic!

Guidosoft, in Post#1 writes:

OK, so all we have here is:
Particles move.
Particles move.
Particles hit other particles and turn into energy.
New particles come from energy as the higher mass particles decay into lesser mass particles.
Particles move.
Particles change position.
Particles notify other particles to move.
Particles move.

Which led me to wonder why we started a Post called "You Are" in the first place!

And then, sleuth that I am, I followed your line of reasoning to the post that you made debating Crashfrog.

It started, I think, with be LIE ve...

beLIEve writes:

Imagine for a second an adult human brain, that has never received ANY sensory information at all, not even from its own body.

It knows nothing of language, nothing of its surroundings, nothing of language, nothing of a god or religion, its simply a brain. All the necessary equipment to generate a thought, everything necessary to carry out an action. to have a usefull thought, it'd need a language to process that in, it'd need a reason for action. what would it think about? could it think it all? it couldnt.

You then say:

Guido writes:

Therefore we don't have free will according to materialistic views.

And then, in true Guido fashion, you bounce off the wall with this line of reasoning!

Guido writes:

Let's assume that time travel is possible....if I go back in time to 5 minutes ago and talk to my mother is the mother I'm talking to the same consciousness as the mother from when I left?

Well? It would be your Mother, would it not? I know for a fact that MY Mother has not essentially changed a whole lot in the past 20 years at least!

Guidosoft writes:

What you need to explain is how the spatial movement of particles in the brain account for consciousness of that idea.

Which I can in no way do! You know me, Guido...I can toss around ideas as long as I understand them somewhat...but you like to fling ideas into the forum like a paintball war! *Splat! *Splat!*

Guido writes:

if no one understood english, english would not exist.

Oh really? If nobody understood Guido, would Guido still exist?

Guido writes:

Otherwise I can say that Ookapopo, a language that might be invented a billion years from now, already exists!

So by your line of reasoning, if we by some magical time machine could visit the Ookapopolians, they would be of a different consciousness than we are aware of?
Within the context of MY Belief, God sees the future and is of One Consciousness...but then, we can hardly begin to figure out human brains, much less His!!

His mind is, I believe, able to be an infinite and unchangeable consciousness...but lets stick to human intelligence for the moment!

Crashfrog writes:

Identity is a static label that we apply to the dynamic system of a human being. They used to say that every seven years, every atom in your body has been replaced. I don't believe that's true, but it's undeniable that there's a flow of atoms through your body; they enter your body as food or air, are encorporated into your body's cells via chemical reactions, those cells die and are eliminated from the body. Your hairs are naturally shed. The enamel of your teeth wears down. You continually shed layers of skin. And you eat food to replace all that lost material.

I have understood that the human body has entirely different cells every 90 days or so!...at least every blood cell is different!

bkelly writes:

We do have computer systems that can be called expert systems in that thay possess the knowledge (rules to be more precise) to perform compex tasks. But in my opinion, we have not reached the point of being able to create AI (Artificial Intelligence). No computer can sense and form a comprehension of someting it has never "seen" before and incorporate new rules and insructions into its programming to deal with that new something.
The brain is thousands if not many millions of simple computers put together in marvelously complex patterns to create, returning to the topic, I AM and YOU ARE.

And I have always wondered if some day, computer technology will be able to outdo the Brain. In other words, will our smartness through human creation of technology evolve into a smarter machine than its creators? Nwr points out that the issues in AI are complex and that there are no easy answers to any of this speculation!

Crashfrog writes:

I think that, in discussions of AI, there's a tendancy to romanticize the power of the human mind, and ignore the fact that the vast majority of everyone's day is spent doing repeated tasks and instinctual behaviors. The vaunted powers of reason our species is continually credited with aren't actually necessary all that often.

Slim Jim writes:

The weak AI hypothesis asserts that machines can possibly act is if they were intelligent; the strong AI hypothesis asserts that machines that act intelligently are actually thinking in a conscious manner (as opposed to simulating thinking).

Slim, you have to see Guido in context, here! He is 14 and his speculations and thought processes are not as disciplined (and boring ) as many of us who are more mature and better educated.

Slim writes:

What specific evidence do you have that the strong AI hypothesis is unfounded?

I don't think that we have any research papers on that subject, yet. Let Guido get through 10th grade, first!

Guidosoft writes:

You do not need computers to know what consciousness is

No, we are simply contrasting the natural processes of human consciousness and creative science with Artificial Intelligence, right? And we ALL can admit that the human mind is capable of great learning potential...it is at this point still more complex than the best computers!

One thing to keep in mind, Guido, is that in these types of discussions, it is better to make carefully worded replies and not be so quick to assume that people are attacking your intelligence...even if they are, they often forget that the objective is not to "win" the argument so much as to express themselves articulatly and move the thread discussion along in a productive manner! (Thats why I took the trouble to type this 30 minute response to you!

)

Crashfrog writes:

Clearly the organization of neurons, as well as the capacity to be exposed to human culture, is necessary for the development of consciousness....But there's nothing in your or my head that can't be modeled on a system of sufficient complexity; the only remaining question at that point is whether or not people like you circularly define "consciousness" in a way that specifically disallows computers to qualify.

Again I ask you, Guido.. Do you think that artificial intelligence will ever mimic human behavior to an undectable degree? By "undectable, I mean that if a computer were thinking and reasoning out this response to you instead of me, (Phat) do you think that technology would ever be able to advance to the unique levels of consciousness and identity that we humans exhibit?

And lets flip this question around to the forum! Do any of you reading this think that the best scientists in the world could ever hypothetically produce a computer or a robot that is as unique and abstract as the mind of Guidosoft? This kid is only 14 yet he thinks nonstop 24/7!

Guido writes:

I win.

Actually, by having discussions, educating ourselves, examining the ideas and beliefs of other people that are not like us, I think that we all win, Guido!

So it is obvious that We are! We are thinking...discussing...creating, and contrasting.

Any more ideas on this topic and the line of reasoning behind it? The ball is in your court, Guido...which direction do you want the topic to go now?

This message has been edited by Phat, 11-29-2005 12:49 AM

Nature is an infinite sphere of which the center is everywhere and the circumference nowhere.
Pensées (1670)

We arrive at truth, not by reason only, but also by the heart.
Pensées (1670)

Heb 4:12-13-- For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
Holy Spirit--speaking through the Apostle Paul

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