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Junior Member (Idle past 3496 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: I don't believe in God, I believe in Gravity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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I guess neither beer nor steak are as fundamental to the existence of anything else a gravity is to the existence of steak, beer and just about anything else one can mention....
On this basis 'Let there be gravity' would make more sense as an opening line in a creation story than 'Let there be beer' or 'Let there be steak'. Personally if I were the creator of all that is seen and unseen I might well start with 'Let there be beer' and see where things go from there - But (probably for the best) I'm not.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Phat writes: In the beginning was human wisdom.. Well... Not really. Humans and the capacity for any wisdom is a rather recent phenomenon. In cosmological terms we haven't even been around long enough to qualify as the proverbial blink of an eye.
Phat writes: ..and that wisdom sought to explain (thus creating) everything now seen and unseen, known and unknown. I assume you are being somewhat metaphorical here? You aren't really suggesting that nothing physically existed before humans started trying to make sense of the world in which they find themselves are you?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Most here "understand gravity" to the extent that they think of it it is an attractive force between bodies that keeps planets in orbits and makes apples fall to the ground.
In short - Most here have some conceptual understanding of gravity a la Newtonian physics. As imperfect as this understanding may be it is well in advance of anything those writing Genesis had at their disposal. Because A) Newton hadn't done his thing at that point and B) Popular science books and the discovery channel hadn't spread the word to the masses of such cultural achievements. You might well claim to "accept" rather than "understand" gravity, and compared to Hawking or someone like that this is probably accurate. But your understanding is still considerably greater than those who wrote Genesis simply because the scientific explanation for gravity is a well documented cultural landmark in the mass media and scientific age in which you live.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Have you ever seen a globe? One of those spinny bally things with lots of countries and seas and suchlike depicted on the surface....?
If you have even the vaguest of understanding of why the people that live in Austalia don't fall off the planet - Then you are in a completely different ballpark to the bible writers in tersm of understanding gravity. Of course if you are as bewildered as Moses would be by the idea of a round Earth and people living upside down on the "bottom" then you should enjoy your view from the stands.....
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
greeny writes: Why would it mention gravity if no one in the area, at the time, worshiped gravity? If you are saying that the writers of the bible were more interested in converting the followers of other religions than telling us anything remotely fundamental or even unknown-at-the-time about reality - Then I agree.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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jar writes: BUT, if you are willing to put as much time and effort into learning stuff like that as you would in learning geology or mathematics or chemistry or physics or history.... Stuff like what? Could you elaborate? Which aspects of the bible are worth adopting as wisdom, which should be discarded as fantasy and how do we decide which are which?
jar writes: And it's fine for you to believe whatever you want to believe. If one wants to believe things that are likley to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
jar writes: BUT, if you are willing to put as much time and effort into learning stuff like that as you would in learning geology or mathematics or chemistry or physics or history, you might be surprised what you could learn. Straggler writes: Stuff like what? Could you elaborate? jar writes: Stuff like the history of the books, the canons, the peoples and cultures. OK. And what is it we would hope to learn by studying these things? What is the surprise? Can you give us a sneak preview?
Straggler writes: If one wants to believe things that are likely to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance? jar writes: We decide which are worth adopting just like we decide about adopting anything else. Really? When Newton published his Philosophi Naturalis Principia Mathematica containing the inverse square law of gravitation or Einstein published his 1916 paper on the General Theory of Relativity - On what basis were those ideas adopted? Was it the same way that people decide which parts of the bible to adopt and which to reject?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: If one wants to believe things that are likely to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance? jar writes: You test to see if things help you, if you learn something new, if ideas work. What do you mean by "work"...? Does General Relativity "work"? Which parts of the bible "work"?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
What do you mean by "work"...?
(Take the "within limits" part as read - All knowledge is "within limits")
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I am trying to get a meaningful answer to this: If one wants to believe things that are likely to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance?
In seeking such answers I have also sought to compare the way in which we reach conclusions about gravity with the way in which we reach conclusions about the bible (a la the topic) So far you have provided the following responses:
jar writes: We decide which are worth adopting just like we decide about adopting anything else. jar writes: You test to see if things help you, if you learn something new, if ideas work. jar writes: By work I mean accomplish the intended purpose or adequately describe what is observed. When it comes to gravity what "works" is assessed in terms of being able to (as you put it) "adequately describe what is observed". Can we judge bible content on the same (rather scientific) basis? We could instead use the "accomplish the intended purpose" approach that you mention. But then it's entirely subjective and the link between what "works" and any sort of veracity is broken. For example if one's intended purpose is to feel comforted and reading Genesis (or whatever) achieves that aim then it can be said to "work". But the fact that it "works" in this way is no indicator of the truth or otherwise of the Genesis story. So - I ask again - If one wants to believe things that are likely to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance? Simply talking about what "works" and then applying the scientific sense of what "works" to one case but not the other doesn't really help.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
The thing about the human condition is that it's something humans are quite absorbed with and lots of books explore it to varying degrees...
As an exploration of the human condition one could say that Ulysses "works". Or even Lord of the Rings or the Matrix if one wants to get pop cultured up. But none of these "work" in the way that General Relativity "works" do they?
Straggler writes: If one wants to believe things that are likely to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance? jar writes: We decide which are worth adopting just like we decide about adopting anything else. Phat - Do you think that the way to assess biblical veracity is the same as the way to assess a theory of gravity?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
That's an unusually poor argument from you. They had no concept of gravity that could possibly explain the physical reality they were also ignorant of.
You do. Ergo your understanding of gravity is superior to theirs. Obviously.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: They didn't need an explanation for a concept they didn't have. Of course not. Which is why they indisputably knew less about gravity than you do.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler writes: If one wants to believe things that are likely to be true how does one decide which parts of the bible are helpful and which are a hindrance? jar previoulsy writes: We decide which are worth adopting just like we decide about adopting anything else. jar now writes: There is no one method. OK. So are the methods applied to gravity the same or different to the methods applied to the bible?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
quote: Gravity for dummies If you read that and can understand written English you now know more about gravirty than Moses could have done, even if you didn't before. You're welcome.
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