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Author Topic:   The moral implications of evolution, and their discontents.
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 24 of 124 (438649)
12-05-2007 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by JB1740
12-05-2007 3:34 PM


atheism and education
I'll dig around and see if I can find it. You could well be right, it just seems low compared to the number of fellow scientists I personally know who identify themselves as Christian. Although thinking about it since you wrote that, I'm thinking perhaps 15% isn't too far off the mark.
There are a lot of studies, and not all of them are really reputable or really distinguish between different shades of belief -- are people who never goes to church, never read the bible, never pray, etcetera, but call themselves christian really a christian? Or are they making the culturally easy answer, and never really think about it?
Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia
quote:
It is difficult to quantify the number of atheists in the world. Different people interpret "atheist" and related terms differently, and it can be hard to draw boundaries between atheism, non-religious beliefs, and non-theistic religious and spiritual beliefs. Furthermore, atheists may not report themselves as such, to prevent suffering from social stigma, discrimination, and persecution in certain regions. Despite these problems, most studies indicate that the non-religious make up about 12-15% of the world's population.
A study has shown atheism to be particularly prevalent among scientists, a tendency already quite marked at the beginning of the 20th century, developing into a dominant one during the course of the century. In 1914, James H. Leuba found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected U.S. natural scientists expressed "disbelief or doubt in the existence of God" (defined as a personal God which interacts directly with human beings). The same study, repeated in 1996, gave a similar percentage of 60.7%; this number is 93% among the members of the National Academy of Sciences. Expressions of positive disbelief rose from 52% to 72%.[9] (See also The relationship between religion and science.)
A 2004 BBC poll showed the number of people in the US who don't believe in a god to be about 10%.[5] A 2005 Gallup poll showed that a smaller 5% of the US population believed that a god didn't exist.[15] The 2001 ARIS report found that while 29.5 million U.S. Americans (14.1%) describe themselves as "without religion", only 902,000 (0.4%) positively claim to be atheist, with another 991,000 (0.5%) professing agnosticism.[16]
Certainly we can say that there are on average fewer declared atheists in america than in the rest of the world, particularly compared to the other developed countries. There is also more prejudice against atheists, which is pretty blatant: can a person get elected if they are not a "good christian"? It's not just a matter of being an atheist but whether your religion is the right kind. We have elected women, blacks and gays ... there has been no atheist president, and not likely to be any time soon (judging by the campaigns now underway).
The other question is whether the question is being asked and counted the right way. If a poll was made about which religions you don't believe in the results would be a lot different, and the only difference between an atheist and a fundamentalist is the number of religions not believed in differ by one (1) out of literally hundreds.
The vast majority of people are atheistic regarding 99% of the world religions.
Certainly the data also shows more atheists in the scientific community, but there is another issue involved here - and that is education. Education, particularly in scientific fields can be subject to two different factors:
  • people of faith find that ignorant beliefs that are contradicted by fact are in fact false, and this can lead to a "loss" in faith, and
  • people who are already atheistic are more likely to pursue a life in science, so they would be "pre-selected" to be more atheistic.
The higher the level of education pursued the more both of these factors contribute.
This of course is the reason that creationism wants to ruin education: it's hard to convince educated people with falsehoods.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : The vast majority of people are mostly atheistic regarding most religions.
Edited by RAZD, : make that 99% of the world religions.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 25 of 124 (438659)
12-05-2007 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Chiroptera
12-05-2007 4:14 PM


evolution and racism (again)
The intent is to examine what the theory of evolution actually is, and to determine whether it, by itself, implies any given code of morality or any philosophy.
This thread is to discuss what conclusions one can reach about morality or philosophy based on the theory of evolution.
The theory of evolution is that the process of evolution - the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation - is sufficient to explain the natural history of life on earth.
If we can conclude any "code of morality or any philosophy" from this, then it would apply to all life and not just human life. The things we can conclude from the theory of evolution are:
  • change happens
  • accumulated change over time can result in increased diversity
  • increased diversity can improve the chance for life to survive catastrophic events
  • therefore change and increased diversity are good.
As such it would be impossible to be racist, by definition.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : subtitle
Edited by RAZD, : inserted 3rd conclusion

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 70 of 124 (439358)
12-08-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Beretta
12-05-2007 9:38 AM


redirected reply
"The fossil record shows variations of all sorts of things but will time turn a dog kind into something that we would say is clearly not a dog? "
Reply to you is new Dogs will be Dogs will be ???
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 124 (439622)
12-09-2007 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2007 2:53 PM


The false conclusion of spawning naturalism
It is my position that there are no moral, social, or philosophical implications to the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is simply a description of observable phenomena, and the use of those phenomena to explain other observable phenomena.
Perhaps it should be, but there is no question that an entire philosophy of science spawned from it.
Presumably you mean that naturalism was spawned by evolution, seeing as your subtitle was "The inescapable conclusion of strict naturalism" which is not surprising, as many creationists try to portray the science of evolution as some evil thought process.
Let's see how this assertion holds up to the evidence of reality:
Naturalism
History
The ideas and assumptions of philosophical naturalism were first seen in the work's of the Ionian pre-Socratic philosophers. Particularly Thales, the man considered to be the father of science, as he was the first to give explanations of natural events without the use of supernatural causes. Jonathan Barnes's introduction to Early Greek Philosophy (Penguin) describes these early philosophers as subscribing to principles of empirical investigation that strikingly anticipate naturalism.
But the modern emphasis in methodological naturalism can be traced back more directly to the ideas of medieval scholastic thinkers during the Renaissance of the 12th century:
By the late Middle Ages the search for natural causes had come to typify the work of Christian natural philosophers. Although characteristically leaving the door open for the possibility of direct divine intervention, they frequently expressed contempt for soft-minded contemporaries who invoked miracles rather than searching for natural explanations. The University of Paris cleric Jean Buridan (a. 1295-ca. 1358), described as "perhaps the most brilliant arts master of the Middle Ages," contrasted the philosopher’s search for "appropriate natural causes" with the common folk’s erroneous habit of attributing unusual astronomical phenomena to the supernatural. In the fourteenth century the natural philosopher Nicole Oresme (ca. 1320-82), who went on to become a Roman Catholic bishop, admonished that, in discussing various marvels of nature, "there is no reason to take recourse to the heavens, the last refuge of the weak, or demons, or to our glorious God as if He would produce these effects directly, more so than those effects whose causes we believe are well known to us."
Enthusiasm for the naturalistic study of nature picked up in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries as more and more Christians turned their attention to discovering the so-called secondary causes that God employed in operating the world. The Italian Catholic Galileo Galilei (1564-1642), one of the foremost promoters of the new philosophy, insisted that nature "never violates the terms of the laws imposed upon her." [7]
Isaac Newton, when asked about the lack of mention of God in his works on physics, is said to have replied, "Hypotheses non fingo." ("I do not make hypotheses.") Similarly, Pierre Simon de Laplace, when asked about the lack of mention of God in his work on celestial mechanics, is said to have replied, "I have no need of that hypothesis."
During the Enlightenment, a number of philosophers including Francis Bacon and Voltaire outlined the philosophical justifications for removing appeal to supernatural forces from investigation of the natural world. Subsequent scientific revolutions would remove much of the remaining theistic baggage from scientific investigation culminating in the development of modern biology and geology which rejected a literal interpretation of the prevailing Christian origin beliefs. For four centuries scientific research has never had to fall back on supernatural explanations for any phenomena within the reach of experiment and theory, in spite of recurring claims that some particular phenomenon cannot have a scientific explanation. This is a powerful set of evidence in favor of naturalism as a scientific theory in its own right.
The term "methodological naturalism" for this approach is much more recent. According to Ronald Numbers, it was coined in 1983 by Paul de Vries, a Wheaton College philosopher. De Vries distinguished between what he called "methodological naturalism," a disciplinary method that says nothing about God's existence, and "metaphysical naturalism," which "denies the existence of a transcendent God."[8]
(Wikipedia, 2007)
In other words, it was started by the pre-Socratic greeks like Thales (620 - c. 546 B.C), then it was taken up by christians in the 12th century and also saw development during the “enlightenment” before the application of it to science in general led to the development of modern sciences, like biology and geology.
Nor does "methodological naturalism" by it's definition accomplish what you imply.
Looks like it's a typical creationist-got-it-all-wrong myth, Nem.
Naturalism Naturalism is any of several philosophical stances, typically those descended from materialism and pragmatism, that do not distinguish the supernatural (including strange entities like non-natural values, and universals as they are commonly conceived) from nature. Naturalism does not necessarily claim that phenomena or hypotheses commonly labeled as supernatural do not exist or are wrong, but insists that all phenomena and hypotheses can be studied by the same methods and therefore anything considered supernatural is either nonexistent or not inherently different from natural phenomena or hypotheses. Some naturalists also insist that a legitimate distinction between supernatural entities and natural entities cannot be properly made (focusing on the conceptual distinction itself), and that when someone is talking or thinking about supernatural entities, they are actually referring to natural entities (though confusedly).
Any method of inquiry or investigation or any procedure for gaining knowledge that limits itself to natural, physical, and material approaches and explanations can be described as naturalistic.
Many modern philosophers of science[1][2] use the terms methodological naturalism or scientific naturalism to refer to the long standing convention in science of the scientific method, which makes the methodological assumption that observable effects in nature are best explainable only by natural causes, without reference to, or an assumption of, the existence or non-existence of supernatural notions. They contrast this with the approach known as ontological naturalism or metaphysical naturalism, which refers to the metaphysical belief that the natural world (including the universe) is all that exists, and therefore nothing supernatural exists.
This distinction between approaches to the philosophy of naturalism is made by philosophers supporting science and evolution in the creation-evolution controversy to counter the tendency of some proponents of Creationism or intelligent design to refer to methodological naturalism as scientific materialism or as methodological materialism and conflate it with metaphysical naturalism.[3] These proponents of creationism use this assertion to support their claim that modern science is atheistic, and contrast it with their preferred approach of a revived natural philosophy which welcomes supernatural explanations for natural phenomena and supports "theistic science" or pseudoscience.
(Wikipedia, 2007)
Yes it is just so evil to only use natural explanations for investigating only natural phenomena. The ideas been around for a while (more than 2600 years?), and you might want to try it sometime.
Now do you want to talk about evolution and what it says about racism?
See Message 25
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added quote

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 119 of 124 (439922)
12-10-2007 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Beretta
12-10-2007 9:54 AM


My take on it.
Think how much easier it is to justify genocide if you believe in survival of the fittest though.
Even though genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is not strictly racist (serbs and albanians are the same race) we can use this as an example.
Natural selection tells you that "inferior" (biologically) phenotypes will reproduce at a lesser rate than "superior" (biologically) phenotypes. Thus over time the "inferior" traits will be removed automatically from the population and "superior" traits will spread.
No racial genocide or ethnic cleansing necessary.
It also means that if you are worried\concerned about your particular race\ethnic "purity" being watered down or overwhelmed by the "other genes" then you are really worried about YOUR GENES being of an "inferior" phenotype, of their losing out in the "struggle of life" ... and thus it is the "inferior" phenotypes would be the ones that would need to "justify genocide" of the "superior" phenotype.
Not the usual genocidal racists ethnic cleansing conclusion.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : clarity.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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