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Author Topic:   Can the standard "Young Earth Creationist" model be falsified by genetics alone?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 88 of 161 (707196)
09-24-2013 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by mindspawn
09-24-2013 3:21 AM


post flood humans
If you are willing to work within the same frames of reference, thereby eliminating any possibility of unintended strawman arguments, can you repeat your point on the assumption that ALL fossil humans are post-flood. (I regard any human fossils less than alleged 250 million years old as post-flood)
Let's put this another way: there is no documented\recorded record\evidence of a world wide flood for the entire period covered by human, hominid and ancestral ape fossils.
We can go back to one of the oldest known hominid fossils:
Ardipithecus ramidus | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
quote:
Ardipithecus ramidus was first reported in 1994; in 2009, scientists announced a partial skeleton, nicknamed ‘Ardi’. The foot bones in this skeleton indicate a divergent large toe combined with a rigid foot — it's still unclear what this means concerning bipedal behavior. The pelvis, reconstructed from a crushed specimen, is said to show adaptations that combine tree-climbing and bipedal activity. The discoverers argue that the ‘Ardi’ skeleton reflects a human-African ape common ancestor that was not chimpanzee-like. A good sample of canine teeth of this species indicates very little difference in size between males and females in this species.
It would be hard -- imho -- to argue that this could be human remains, while it certainly is consilient with hominid evolution and early adaptation to bipedal ability.
Or we can go back further to the oldest known primate fossil:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2013/06/130605133550.htm
quote:
The fossil was recovered from sedimentary rock strata that were deposited in an ancient lake roughly 55 million years ago, during the early part of the Eocene Epoch. This was an interval of global "greenhouse" conditions, when much of the world was shrouded in tropical rainforests and palm trees grew as far north as Alaska. Like most other fossils recovered from ancient lake strata, the skeleton of Archicebus was found by splitting apart the thin layers of rock containing the fossil. ....
Note lake not ocean\sea, just for clarity, and that there were no marine fossils associated with these fossils.
And we have not even gotten near to the K-Pg (formerly K-T) boundary.
You can (try anyway to) ignore the age of rock formations in the pursuit of your pet delusional theory, but you cannot ignore the laws of geology that relate to the relative ages of layers, superposition being one: lower layers are older than upper layers.
Law of superposition - Wikipedia
quote:
The law of superposition (or the principle of superposition) is a key axiom based on observations of natural history that is a foundational principle of sedimentary stratigraphy
Sedimentary layers are deposited in a time sequence, with the oldest on the bottom and the youngest on the top.
The law was formulated in the 17th century by the Danish scientist Nicolas Steno.
The K-Pg boundary is well marked around the world due to iridium rich dust in the layer.
Cretaceous—Paleogene boundary - Wikipedia
quote:
The Cretaceous—Paleogene (K—Pg) boundary (formerly known as the K—T boundary) is a geological signature, usually a thin band. It defines the end of the Mesozoic era, and is usually estimated at around 66 Ma (million years ago),[1] with more specific radio-isotope dates yielding an age of 65.5 0.3 Ma.[2] ...
In 1980, a team of researchers consisting of Nobel prize-winning physicist Luis Alvarez, his son, geologist Walter Alvarez, and chemists Frank Asaro and Helen Michels discovered that sedimentary layers found all over the world at the K—Pg boundary contain a concentration of iridium many times greater than normal (30 times background in Italy and 160 times at Stevns).[5] Iridium is extremely rare in the earth's crust because it is a siderophile, and therefore most of it travelled with iron as it sank into the earth's core during planetary differentiation. As iridium remains abundant in most asteroids and comets, the Alvarez team suggested that an asteroid struck the earth at the time of the K—Pg boundary.[5] ...
All human, hominid and ancestral ape fossils lie above the K-Pg boundary while the P-T boundary is below the K-Pg boundary.
Of note Orthida brachiopods became extinct during the P-T extinction event. Fossils of these brachiopods are found on Mt Everest:
ORDOVICIAN OF THE WORLD (downloads)
quote:
The highest rocks on Earth, marking the summit of Mount Everest, are Ordovician limestones, deposited in a warm, shallow-water sea some 450 million years ago. More remarkably, these rocks still contain the fossils of marine animals such as brachiopods and crinoids that occupied tropical habitats during one of the most important intervals in Earth history, the Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event (GOBE). ... The shallow-water shelly faunas were dominated by suspension feeders including orthide and strophomenide brachiopods, and a robust pentameride crinoid, ‘Pentagonopentagonalis’ (col.) sp. Multivariate statistical analyses of the distributional patterns of the Brachiopoda, place the fauna within the Toquima-Table Head realm, a circum equatorial province contrasting against the higher latitude Celtic and Gondwanan faunas during the late Mid Ordovician.
Just for amusement on another line of evidence that you need to wrap up in your "explanation" ... please note that brachiopods shells grow on a rather fragile stalk attached to the bottom of shallow seas.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by mindspawn, posted 09-24-2013 3:21 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by mindspawn, posted 09-25-2013 8:51 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 161 of 161 (710111)
11-01-2013 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by mindspawn
09-25-2013 8:51 AM


Re: post flood humans
Hi Mindspawn
... and if ancient Indian legend matches the most hospitable regions, mankind was living on the island of Siberia as we headed towards the flood (PT boundary). Most of the world was subject to glaciation and periodic extinctions, but the higher latitudes (Island of Siberia) were less susceptible. ...
Why not in a bubble on the moon?
I agree with relative ages. I also partially agree with radiometric dating to determine relative dates.
Based on relative ages there are millions of years of life recorded on earth between the K-Pg and P-T boundaries ...
And if you have trouble with radiometric dating see Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics? for the evidence for constant decay ... I've read your arguments against the dating techniques and the objective empirical evidence against you, and I see that your arguments don't hold water, certainly not enough for a flood.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mindspawn, posted 09-25-2013 8:51 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
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