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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Straggler writes:
Read my posts. I'm the one who's been advocating tolerance, acceptance and understanding right from the start. I've ben saying that if people are tolerated, accepted and understood as they are, they won't need to worry about wether they're "acting like a man" or acting like a woman" at all.
But how are you (or anyone else) being asked to do anything other than tolerate, accept or understand the "masquerade"...? Straggler writes:
Aybody who is contemplating taking his/her own life should be treated as somebody who is contemplating taking his/her own life. The reason for the desparation isn't particularly important. What neds to be fixed is the lapse in logic that concludes that suicide is the solution.
And why not do that in situations where the alternative is a degree of desperation that leads to the taking of one's own life?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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I've ben saying that if people are tolerated, accepted and understood as they are And that's what you're being asked for - to understand and accept that a woman is a woman, regardless of the birth configuration of her genitals. And that's specifically what you're rejecting. So pardon us if we find your invocation of "tolerance" somewhat hollow, since, in your case, it comes along with all the intolerant bullshit you've been spouting.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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crashfrog writes:
What I'm being asked to do is confirm that black is white and that Jim is Napoleon. It has nothing to do with tolerance. The word "woman" becomes meaningless if it's just something that somebody wants to be called.
And that's what you're being asked for - to understand and accept that a woman is a woman, regardless of the birth configuration of her genitals.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
And that's what you're being asked for - to understand and accept that a woman is a woman, regardless of the birth configuration of her genitals. It'll probably work best when applying for scholarships, right? Hey I totally FEEL like a black, native American, bi-sexual woman with a learning disability and I also FEEL slightly mentally challenged. Scholarship from every organization, pleaseeee! - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
But until such questions are emphatically answered why deny people potentially life saving treatment because you have an ideological problem? Life saving? Realllyyyy Do you feel it should always be the case that doctors give in to the request of those threatening to kill themselves? If not, at what point should the doctor feel this person is not menatlly stable enough to make such drastic demands? If you do however feel they should give in to the request of those threatening to kill themselves then, well, you're crazier than I thought. - Oni
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onifre Member (Idle past 2980 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
That's exactly what it is. Gender is performative, its a set of traits that you evince; you are a certain gender because you perform a certain gender. Gender, depending on the context, can mean both how someone identifies themselves AND their sex. Male and Female, in the context Panda was talkling about, means their sex. A male is the one with the penis, the female is the one with the vagina. It's all very simple, really, unless you're a seahorse. What you're talking about are gender roles in society, which can be anything you want. Like with the gays. You're a man playing the role of a woman, or vice versa. But you're not a female or a male just because you wanna be. Female and Male are specifically describing someones sex. - Oni
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Oni writes: If not, at what point should the doctor feel this person is not menatlly stable enough to make such drastic demands? Do people get sex change operations simply because they have demanded it? I thought it took considerable medical and psychological evaluations in order to be accepted for such surgery. Are you telling me people in the US can wander into a clinic, demand to have their genitals removed because they think they might prefer it that way and then get accepted for surgery if they simply say they will kill themselves if their demands are not met? Is that how you think it works?
Straggler writes: But until such questions are emphatically answered why deny people potentially life saving treatment because you have an ideological problem? Oni writes: Life saving? Realllyyyy Isn't that for doctors, psychologists to assess based on detailed evaluation of the patient over an extended period of time? Who the hell are you to say no? I am mystified as to your objection to surgery on some sort of ideological principle. If it is genuinely deemed the best course of action for the patient (in the absence of superior and less drastic alternatives that may or may not appear at some later date) - Why should it be removed as an option?
Oni writes: If you do however feel they should give in to the request of those threatening to kill themselves then, well, you're crazier than I thought. That isn't how it works. As you full know.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Ringo writes: I've ben saying that if people are tolerated, accepted and understood as they are, they won't need to worry about wether they're "acting like a man" or acting like a woman" at all. Is that what you think the symptoms of transsexualism are? A desire to "act like" a member of the opposite sex?
Ringo writes: Aybody who is contemplating taking his/her own life should be treated as somebody who is contemplating taking his/her own life. The reason for the desparation isn't particularly important. I would say the reason someone is contemplating taking their own life is very relevant to why it is they are contemplating taking their own life. How can it not be?
Ringo writes: What neds to be fixed is the lapse in logic that concludes that suicide is the solution. If human beings were wholly logical automatons I doubt transgenderism would be an issue for anyone any more than Mac having a deep psychological conviction that it is a PC is a widespread problem. Fortunately humans are not wholly logical automatons. But this does mean we need to find ways to tackle issues of human subjectivity without simply asserting that such issues are illogical.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Ringo writes:
crashfrog writes:
What I'm being asked to do is confirm that black is white and that Jim is Napoleon. It has nothing to do with tolerance. The word "woman" becomes meaningless if it's just something that somebody wants to be called. And that's what you're being asked for - to understand and accept that a woman is a woman, regardless of the birth configuration of her genitals. The fallacy assumed here is that one part of the body is the same as what another part of the body is. Now, far be it for me to assume what Ringo is thinking should be the overriding part, but as for me, I'll take the mind every time. Edited by xongsmith, : grammar- xongsmith, 5.7d
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Straggler writes:
That's the opposite of what I've been saying. Whatever way anybody wants to act, let them act that way. Don't tell them as a child that they don't want to wear that or play with that toy. Divorce their behaviour from their genitals and they're less likely to feel uncomfortable with their genitals.
Is that what you think the symptoms of transsexualism are? A desire to "act like" a member of the opposite sex? Straggler writes:
If somebody is contemplating suicide because he lost his job, giving him a new job is only a partial solution. The real problem is his idea that suicide is the solution to his problems. Chances are he'll soon have another problem that demands the same solution.
I would say the reason someone is contemplating taking their own life is very relevant to why it is they are contemplating taking their own life.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
xongsmith writes:
You edited for grammar and I still have no idea what you're trying to say.
The fallacy assumed here is that one part of the body is the same as what another part of the body is. Now, far be it for me to assume what Ringo is thinking should be the overriding part, but as for me, I'll take the mind every time.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
He's saying that, if we're using body parts to define a person, he'd rather choose the mind as the defining part than the genitalia.
I rather agree.The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Rahvin writes:
Thanks for the clarification. Of course, I've been saying all along that we should not be defining persons at all. Using the word "female" to describe a person doesn't define her nor does her behaviour define her. Her definition is wholly in her own mind. We, as a society, can only influence - for good or for bad - how it gets in there.
He's saying that, if we're using body parts to define a person, he'd rather choose the mind as the defining part than the genitalia.I rather agree.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined:
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Ringo writes: Whatever way anybody wants to act, let them act that way. But transsexualism isn't about "acting that way" is it? It's about self-identity. It's about a mind-body mismatch. To use a rather extreme comparison to make the mind-body mismatch point: If you woke up one day to find yourself in the body of a baboon would others agreeing to treat you as a human be enough to resolve your plight? Or would you think that resolving your mind-body mismatch might be a preferable solution? If surgery could resolve the issue wouldn't you opt for it?
Ringo writes: The real problem is his idea that suicide is the solution to his problems. If I woke up to find myself in a body that I felt made any life impossible to live (e.g. completely paralysed) I might well prefer death. If I could change that body the need to contemplate death as a solution would obviously vanish.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Straggler writes:
Is it? But transsexualism isn't about "acting that way" is it? It's about self-identity. I asked that question back in Message 26 and I didn't get any response. Allow me to repeat:
quote:You're assuming that the body is wrong and needs to be changed. Why not change the mind instead? Straggler writes:
It isn't obvious at all. Next week, your girlfriend would leave you because you mutilated your genitals - and suicide would be the solution again.
If I could change that body the need to contemplate death as a solution would obviously vanish.
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