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Author Topic:   Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 276 (660351)
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


An interesting article:
Identical twin boys, one transgender become brother and sister - The Boston Globe
quote:
Led by the child who simply knew
The twin boys were identical in every way but one. Wyatt was a girl to the core, and now lives as one, with the help of a brave, loving family and a path-breaking doctor’s care.
Jonas and Wyatt Maines were born identical twins, but from the start each had a distinct personality.
‘Wyatt needs hair accessories, clothes, shoes . . . likes to wear bikinis, high heels, mini-skirts.’
Jonas was all boy. He loved Spiderman, action figures, pirates, and swords.
Wyatt favored pink tutus and beads. At 4, he insisted on a Barbie birthday cake and had a thing for mermaids. On Halloween, Jonas was Buzz Lightyear. Wyatt wanted to be a princess; his mother compromised on a prince costume.
Once, when Wyatt appeared in a sequin shirt and his mother’s heels, his father said: You don’t want to wear that.’’
Yes, I do,’’ Wyatt replied.
Dad, you might as well face it,’’ Wayne recalls Jonas saying. You have a son and a daughter.’’
That early declaration marked, as much as any one moment could, the beginning of a journey that few have taken, one the Maineses themselves couldn’t have imagined until it was theirs. The process of remaking a family of identical twin boys into a family with one boy and one girl has been heartbreaking and harrowing and, in the end, inspiring - a lesson in the courage of a child, a child who led them, and in the transformational power of love.
Wayne and Kelly Maines have struggled to know whether they are doing the right things for their children, especially for Wyatt, who now goes by the name Nicole. Was he merely expressing a softer side of his personality, or was he really what he kept saying: a girl in a boy’s body? Was he exhibiting early signs that he might be gay?Was it even possible, at such a young age, to determine what exactly was going on?
We can rule out genetics.
We can rule out upbringing.
We can rule out "choice".
What's left is fetal development - the process that builds a fetus from the genetic recipe - and a mutation in the progress of that development in one fetus.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 04-19-2012 1:30 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 6 by Panda, posted 04-24-2012 10:05 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 04-25-2012 1:18 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 12 by nwr, posted 04-25-2012 9:25 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 04-25-2012 11:48 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 276 (660352)
04-19-2012 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


Bumping a lost PNT
Do you still wish to pursue this PNT theme, or has it been covered elsewhere.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2011 11:22 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 276 (660353)
04-19-2012 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
04-19-2012 1:30 AM


Re: Bumping a lost PNT
perhaps in coffee house?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 4 of 276 (660355)
04-24-2012 8:54 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5 of 276 (660360)
04-24-2012 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Adminnemooseus
04-24-2012 8:54 PM


thanks
Now we can see if this takes off

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Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 6 of 276 (660366)
04-24-2012 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


RAZD writes:
We can rule out genetics.
Can we?
quote:
Monozygotic twins are genetically nearly identical...Wiki
Therefore, identical twins are not completely genetically identical.
Could they be so different as to cause one twin to by trans-gender? I don't know.
But they are not genetically identical, so why should we exclude genetics?
RAZD writes:
We can rule out upbringing.
To expect 2 children to have the same up-bringing (because they are twins) is overly simplistic.
Twins are not actually physically joined.
An individual twin experiences a different life to his brother.
These different experiences lead to different behaviour.
Could certain events in a life lead to gender confusion? I don't know.
But I see no reason to exclude the possibility that they could.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2011 11:22 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 276 (660377)
04-25-2012 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


I'm having trouble understanding something. Where does it say it has to be any of the particular factors you mentioned? Why can't it be a combination of those factors?
Human sexuality, like all other human traits, are influenced by a combination of genetic factors, environmental factors, hormonal factors, and zeus knows what else.
Now, if we were to talk about what rights should these people have because of their sexuality, I say choice or not has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. It shouldn't even be part of the debate, that whether a person can choose to be gay or not. So what if tomorrow I choose to be gay and the next day I choose to be straight?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2011 11:22 AM RAZD has replied

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 276 (660381)
04-25-2012 3:01 AM


I've been reading a little about phenotypic plasticity lately, a trait found in all organisms but spectacularly in insects and plants. It means that how an individual's phenotype (ie physical form) is created from its genotype (ie its DNA) depends on many environmental and other factors.
So it is entirely possible that a twin can be different - in fact all identical twins ARE different despite having identical genotypes - as an obvious example, they have different fingerprints, but there are always other subtle differences that enable family members to tell them apart.
So, to take a giant and heroic leap in logic, perhaps we should now be looking for a difference in the very early upbringing or even birth of these two children that might have caused a difference in gene expression.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 276 (660384)
04-25-2012 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Panda
04-24-2012 10:05 PM


Hi Panda,
RAZD writes:
We can rule out genetics.
Can we?
quote:
Monozygotic twins are genetically nearly identical...Wiki
Therefore, identical twins are not completely genetically identical.
Could they be so different as to cause one twin to by trans-gender? I don't know.
But they are not genetically identical, so why should we exclude genetics?
There are plenty of studies on genetic\developmental differences in twins (google, birth defects among twins, scholarly articles)
Twins, triplets have greater chance of birth defects
quote:
The same team of researchers, from UF's Maternal Child Health Education Research and Data Center, studied 4,768 pairs of opposite-sex twins and found that boys had a 29 percent higher risk for birth defects than girls. This could be because boys tend to develop at a slower pace, leaving a little more time for potential problems to arise, according to findings published this month in Birth Defects Research (Part A): Clinical and Molecular Teratology.
They say developmental effects rather than genetic. Even when they know they have genetic differences (MF twins).
RAZD writes:
We can rule out upbringing.
To expect 2 children to have the same up-bringing (because they are twins) is overly simplistic.
Twins are not actually physically joined.
An individual twin experiences a different life to his brother.
These different experiences lead to different behaviour.
Could certain events in a life lead to gender confusion? I don't know.
But I see no reason to exclude the possibility that they could.
In this specific case the family says the differences started too soon for them to have significantly different experiences.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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 Message 6 by Panda, posted 04-24-2012 10:05 PM Panda has not replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 276 (660387)
04-25-2012 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
04-25-2012 1:18 AM


Hi Taz,
Why can't it be a combination of those factors?
Affecting one and not the other?
Human sexuality, like all other human traits, are influenced by a combination of genetic factors, environmental factors, hormonal factors, and zeus knows what else.
Hormones are part of the environmental factors during gestation, as is zeus.
Now, if we were to talk about what rights should these people have because of their sexuality, I say choice or not has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. It shouldn't even be part of the debate, that whether a person can choose to be gay or not. ...
And I agree that it has nothing to do with individual rights. But this set of twins shows that the behavior patterns started at a significantly younger age than sexual development.
... So what if tomorrow I choose to be gay and the next day I choose to be straight?
Have you actually tried it? Curiously, I did when I was young and adventurous (free love hippy days), and it didn't work, even in mixed company. From my, admittedly anecdotal experiences, I conclude that one can only choose whether to express or repress the sexuality that one has.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 04-25-2012 1:18 AM Taz has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 276 (660389)
04-25-2012 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
04-25-2012 3:01 AM


Hi Tangle,
I've been reading a little about phenotypic plasticity lately, a trait found in all organisms but spectacularly in insects and plants. It means that how an individual's phenotype (ie physical form) is created from its genotype (ie its DNA) depends on many environmental and other factors.
What other factors are there? I see environmental rather broadly (hormones and chemicals, temperatures, nutrients, etc), and we are talking about behavioral traits showing up rather soon after birth.
So it is entirely possible that a twin can be different - in fact all identical twins ARE different despite having identical genotypes - as an obvious example, they have different fingerprints, but there are always other subtle differences that enable family members to tell them apart.
Implying that these are developmental differences rather than genetic differences. This would be good reason for random patterns in fingerprints for instance rather than family similarities.
So, to take a giant and heroic leap in logic, perhaps we should now be looking for a difference in the very early upbringing or even birth of these two children that might have caused a difference in gene expression.
That is where I go on this one: developmental differences in when gene expression is keyed to occur. This is also consilient with the twin study cited above on birth defects.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 04-25-2012 3:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 12 of 276 (660396)
04-25-2012 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


RAZD writes:
We can rule out genetics.
We can rule out upbringing.
We can rule out "choice".
What's left is fetal development - the process that builds a fetus from the genetic recipe - and a mutation in the progress of that development in one fetus.
The analysis seems too simplistic to me.
In a computer, there's a circuit called a flipflop. It contains two logic gates (probably more, but let's keep it simple). They are wired up so that they have to be in opposite states. If one is a "true", the other will be a "false".
So maybe these are "flip-flop" twins. Perhaps they are innately ornery, competitive, and bound to be opposites. But it is arbitrary as to which is one way and which is the other.
I am not suggesting that's the explanation in this case. I am only saying that this is a possibility that you left out in your analysis. I expect there are many other possibilities also left out of your analysis.
My own view: We are not born homosexual or heterosexual. We are born sexual. And we have to find our own way to express that sexuality. There are probably many factors that will affect how we find our own way, including genetic factors, pre-natal environmental factors, post-natal environmental factors, plain chance, etc.
I suggest we just accept that everybody is different in many ways, and that we stop the discrimination.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-12-2011 11:22 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 13 of 276 (660400)
04-25-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
04-25-2012 8:05 AM


RAZD writes:
What other factors are there? I see environmental rather broadly (hormones and chemicals, temperatures, nutrients, etc), and we are talking about behavioral traits showing up rather soon after birth.
The factors can be absolutely anything from pH, temperature, hormones/pheromones, oxygen levels, presence of competitors or enemies - even physical touching. (!)
There's a very readable paper on it here:
Page not found – Insects on Plants, Chemical Ecology, and Coevolution

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


(2)
Message 14 of 276 (660408)
04-25-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-12-2011 11:22 AM


We can rule out genetics.
We can rule out upbringing.
We can rule out "choice".
What's left is fetal development - the process that builds a fetus from the genetic recipe - and a mutation in the progress of that development in one fetus.
I take issue with all three of your claims, and more generally reject the model under which you make them
Claim 1: Genetics.
Two issues emerge: firstly, there's the question of whether they're actually genetically identical - has this been tested? Or, as it usually the case, are they assumed to be identical based on very similar morphology? It's not uncommon for twins to misclassified as identical. Even if they're monozygotic, it is quite possible for gene mutations to occur in one twin but not the other. Secondly, if we take a broader view of genetics, it's quite possible that the epigenetics of the twins are different.
Claim 2: upbringing
Who says their upbringing was the same? Are we sure that, for example, the parents didn't pick up the differences in their play behaviour and encourage them, wanting to ensure their two sons developed different identities?
Claim 3: choice
Why can we rule out choice? Did Wyatt not choose tutus and beads? Did he not choose to demand a barbie cake? What is choice, anyway? The idea that it is only a choice if we could trivially choose differently is naive, at best.
Finally, I reject the framework underwhich you're working. Environment is wider than upbringing and the idea that the influences of genetics and environment can be separated is simply wrong. Many, probably most, genes - especially those for complex characteristics - interact with the environment is extremely varied ways. The influence of environment is only possible if the genes allow it.
In a way, all traits are 100% environmental and 100% genetic.

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Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 15 of 276 (660414)
04-25-2012 12:49 PM


I wonder, any of you who are seriously considering that choice has anything to do with sexual orientation or gender identity (two completely separate subjects, I might add - a transgendered woman is in no way a homosexual man, for example), was there a time when you chose to identify as your biological gender, or to be attracted to the gender(s) o which you are attracted?
For the life of me, I cannot recall a moment in time where I chose to identify as male, nor a time when I chose to find women sexually attractive and men not.
I've spoken to quite a few gay and transgendered individuals. They report a similar experience in terms of choice - they had moments of realization where they figured out that something was different (ie, a person who identifies as female noticing that the other girls are biologically different from her, or a homosexual person noticing that most of their friends are attracted to a different gender, etc), but not a single one of them had a moment where they decided anything in those regards.
You don't choose who you find attractive.
You don't choose which gender identifies you.
And even the choice to transition genders is not just a matter of preference - it's correcting a problem. Transgendered individuals don't just want boobs or a penis. They aren't crazy. It's become cliche, but they really do feel trapped in the wrong body.
You know those ridiculously bad comedy movies that involve a man and woman swapping bodies? Remove the bad comedy and focus on that moment of distress that a real person would feel in such a situation - having your body reflect a gender different from your identity. How do you think that would feel? That is what a transgendered person feels. And that's why many of them seek to have their physical gender surgically and chemically reassigned to match who they are, since in real life there's no poorly written "comedic" plot device that puts everyone back in the right body by the end of the terrible movie.
For the rest - identical twins studies have long been accepted as strong evidence in determining genetic factors, and I see no reason to disregard that fact simply because we start talking about sexual orientation and gender identity. Like all studies, you can't take a single case and pretend it has statistical significance...but when we have a plurality of twins studies and they all seem to show that neither genetics nor environment seems to be a factor in determining gender identity or sexual orientation, we should certainly pay attention.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

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