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Author Topic:   Was the Use of Atomic Bombs Against Japan Justified?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 43 of 140 (623548)
07-11-2011 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by dronestar
07-08-2011 10:35 AM


Nice Bomb
PS: For what it's worth, my father also served in Japan after the war. His OPINION is that it was criminal and unnecessary also.
First point:
My father served in Europe. After V-E day his unit mustered home and starting training for the invasion of Japan. Being experienced combat troops his unit was slated as one of the first to land.
Dad was very thankful to Truman and the bomb. His point to me was that without the bomb most probably I would not exist.
Second Point:
Japan's immanent surrender is a post-war myth. A demonstration would have meant nothing. Without the bomb, invasion and a hard slog through all the islands would have been the only option. The Emperor's command to the military and the civilians of Iwo Jima, Okinawa and Saipan to fight and die or to commit suicide could only be interpreted as an omen of what lay ahead in an invasion of the main islands.
Dead is dead whether it is from the bomb or the bayonet. There should be no doubt that many more Japanese lives were saved by use of the bomb than would have survived an invasion.
Third point:
Your contention that the use of the bomb constitutes a war crime is asinine. You do not get to decide what is a war crime. The rest of world society does. Only those who lived the horrors of the forties can judge the actions and I do not recall in reading history of anything but relief when the bombs forced the Japanese into submission. Your comfortable and safe arm-chair, Monday-morning quarterback view is rejected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by dronestar, posted 07-08-2011 10:35 AM dronestar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Rahvin, posted 07-11-2011 1:34 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 45 of 140 (623563)
07-11-2011 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rahvin
07-11-2011 1:34 PM


Re: Nice Bomb
There was a demonstration. The Japanese did not surrender after the demonstration, and so another weapon was used.
I cannot disagree. Point taken.

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 Message 44 by Rahvin, posted 07-11-2011 1:34 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(3)
Message 122 of 140 (912424)
08-31-2023 5:01 PM


Okinawa
I didn't see Percy's Message 115. Well, I saw it but then missed scoop. I blame my drugs. Anyway, after writing and posting this thing I'll just keep it up. Sorry Percy.
An additional wrinkle to the decision was Okinawa. What the Japanese army did as the battle turned was to enforce civilian suicide and terrorized the population with the specter of the American devil.
quote:
On Okinawa, the Imperial Japanese Army mobilized 1,780 schoolboys aged 14–17 years into front line service as an Iron and Blood Imperial Corps while female Himeyuri students were organized into a nursing unit. This mobilization was conducted by an ordinance of the Ministry of the Army, not by law. The ordinances mobilized the students as volunteer soldiers for form's sake; in reality, the military authorities ordered schools to force almost all students to "volunteer" as soldiers; sometimes they counterfeited the necessary documents.
...
With the impending Japanese defeat, civilians often committed mass suicide, urged on by the Japanese soldiers who told locals that victorious American soldiers would go on a rampage of killing and raping. Ryūkyū Shimpō, one of the two major Okinawan newspapers, wrote in 2007: "There are many Okinawans who have testified that the Japanese Army directed them to commit suicide. There are also people who have testified that they were handed grenades by Japanese soldiers" to blow themselves up.
The military was in total command of the population as it was throughout all of Japan at this late stage in the war.
quote:
Some military historians believe that the Okinawa campaign led directly to the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as a means of avoiding the planned ground invasion of the Japanese mainland. This view is explained by Victor Davis Hanson in his book Ripples of Battle:
... because the Japanese on Okinawa ... were so fierce in their defense (even when cut off and without supplies), and because casualties were so appalling, many American strategists looked for an alternative means to subdue mainland Japan, other than a direct invasion. This means presented itself, with the advent of atomic bombs, which worked admirably in convincing the Japanese to sue for peace [unconditionally], without American casualties.

With 60 million civilians in Japan the prospect of many of them, as in Okinawa, sacrificing themselves, forcefully or otherwise, to kill Americans sent shock waves through the American military.
Why a demonstration shot was not used before first use had more to do with the scarcity of plutonium/uranium. At the time we only had the two bombs. After Nagasaki we had no more and were about 2-3 weeks from having another. Generals don’t like not having extra bullets. They were not going to waste one.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by dronestar, posted 09-01-2023 10:15 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 125 of 140 (912441)
09-01-2023 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by dronestar
09-01-2023 10:15 AM


Re: Okinawa
HOWEVER, the lengthy post I created here Message 47 describes why there were much much much better reasons NOT to use atom bombS on innocent civilians, including woman and children.
Your opinion is but one on the subject. Better or worse doesn't matter. It lost.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by dronestar, posted 09-01-2023 10:15 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by dronestar, posted 09-01-2023 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(6)
Message 127 of 140 (912444)
09-01-2023 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by dronestar
09-01-2023 4:49 PM


Re: Okinawa
I didn't think you were debating but insisting.
What you are 'debating' is an 80 year-old morality from a time of extreme emotional strife in a society you could never experience and yet are willing to judge. Others may go there but I'll pass.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by dronestar, posted 09-01-2023 4:49 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by dronestar, posted 09-06-2023 3:47 PM AZPaul3 has not replied
 Message 129 by dronestar, posted 09-06-2023 4:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8593
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 132 of 140 (912497)
09-06-2023 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by dronestar
09-06-2023 4:15 PM


Re: Okinawa
I repeat, it is easy to do the wrong thing when acting on ANGER and RACISM, isn't it?
Yes. But not all actions of the past were made from anger and racism. In the case of the bomb there was more in play than just wartime hate and bigotry.
In the case of Jan 6, the motivation there was just pure stupid.
You're really reaching for this. Why this need to show our fault? Everyone knows they are there if not to the extreme degree you seem to insist. Human morality sucks. Everyone knows that. So what is your point in beating this to death?

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by dronestar, posted 09-06-2023 4:15 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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