Born Again

On the contrary, we shouldn't use your interpretation of what somebody said about Jesus to supersede what Jesus said. It's only obscure if you try to impose your own theology on it. It states plainly that a well-educated Jew ought to know what "born again" means. Therefore, it couldn't possibly have anything to do with Jesus' resurrection because that hadn't happened yet. As far as I know, there are no names mentioned in either the Old or New Testaments. Jesus didn't make a habit of saying that George is saved and Harry isn't.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

That was not my interpretation. It was my quotation: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3) The Christians have been "regenerated unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." No, rather you have to do a huge amount of imposition to try to make the Christ's teaching amount to something without His resurrection.You probably do not take John's word that the Word Who was God became flesh (John 1:14)In the years I have read your posts I have never seen a clear confession from you of either the Deity of Jesus Christ or a belief in His redemptive death and resurrection. In verse 5 Jesus told Nicodemus "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unles one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." This was His reemphasizing of His word in verse 3 - "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The words of "water and the Spirit" should have been plain to Nicodemus, without any need of explanation. In Matthew 3:11 John the Baptist spoke the same words to the Pharisees. "I baptize you in water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is stronger than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matt. 3:11) From the preaching of John the Baptist, the Pharisees should have fully understood what John the Baptist had taught them.Nicodemus was a man of the Pharisees - "But there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews." (v.1) Now, Nicodemus the Pharisee was conversing with the Lord Jesus Himself, the One whom John announced as the greater one coming after him. And the Lord Jesus speaks these familiar words about being born of the water and the Spirit again to Nicodemus.Water was the central part of the ministry of John the Baptist as he was immersing repentent sinners in water. And "Spirit" is the central concept of the teaching of Jesus.As John had said: "I baptize you in water .... He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire." (Matt. 3:11) Burial in water stands for termination.
Enlivening of the Spirit stands for germination.These two main concepts together constitute the concept of regeneration - being born anew. Being born again, being born anew is the termination of people in the old creation with all their old creation deeds, and the germination of people in the new creation with the divine life of God.Jesus apparently knew that Nicodemus should have understood these things. Probably if he had heeded the words of John the Baptist along with what Jesus was speaking, Nicodemus would have understood.The question of Nicodemus "How can these things be?" (v.9) follows immediately after these words of Jesus:

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"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." (v.8)

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There is little excuse in grasping at this perplexity of John and the comment of Jesus, to introduce a humanistic self improvement program to substitute for being born of God.

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One thing is certain. The Spirit had not yet been dispensed into the disciples of Jesus:

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"But this He [Jesus] spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were ABOUT to receive; for the SPirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:39)

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John's comment is not insignificant. The disciples had not yet experienced "born again" for they had not yet received the Spirit.

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John stresses that AFTER the resurrection of Jesus He met with His disciples and breathed into them saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) Therefore the disciples must have been born of the Spirit at that time. Therefore the disciples must have been born again at that time Jesus symbolically breathed on them saying "Receive the Holy Spirit" .Then their human spirit must have been born of the Holy Spirit. And then it must have been that the rivers of living water could begin to flow out of their innermost being as Jesus promised in John 7:38. And I might add that the event of rivers of living water flowing out of the innermost being was something that had been spoken about in the Old Testament because Jesus had said "AS THE SCRIPTURE SAID""He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water." There is plenty of ground to surmise that these prophecies / predictions / teachings could have been familar to a Pharisees either by the preaching of John and Jesus and/or what their Hebrew Scriptures had said. Yet First Peter has as an audience "sojourners of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadacia, Asia, and Bethynia, chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ..." (1 Peter 1:1) And to this audience Peter (including Peter himself) does specifically say they were regenerated - born anew: " ... according to His great mercy has REGENERATED US unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (v.3) This amounts to Peter telling us "WE were born again".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

But on occasion He did mention names or strong indication of specific names.In Luke 16:20-25 the name "Lazarus" was used for someone who was SAVED.And in John 17:12 "the son of perdition" who is obviously not saved refers to Judas Iscariot. Face it. Who is saved and who perishes eventually becomes a very personal matter.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The idea that regeneration is a magical one-time thing certainly is your interpretation. Once again, you can not use that interpretation to overturn what Jesus said. He was ritually cleansing people with water. If you want to make the claim that the Bible supports full immersion, that's a different topic.Of course, washing is one more thing that is done daily, not once in a lifetime. That isn't what Jesus said though. He thought Nicodemus should understand rebirth because he was Jewish, not because of John the Baptist. We've been through that. It depends on what "receiving the Spirit" means and on how that is related to being born again. That's a whole other topic and it doesn't negate what Jesus said specifically about being born again. He didn't say it was the first time they received the Holy Spirit, or the only time. Breathing is also something we do on a continuous basis. That seems like my point, not yours. The concept of living water existed before the advent of Jesus, before His resurrection, so the living waters could flow without Him. You asked me for names of people in the Old Testament who were "born again". I've already mentioned some who were saved.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

"Magic," "Spooky," "Decoder ring" - those are all your phrases.Nothing in the chapter says "you must be born again every day".There are a number of things that a Christian is well advized to have a daily practice of. Nowhere in the Bible is being born again listed as one of them. Its irrelvant to your failed case either way. Birth takes place ONCE - both naturally and spiritually. It so happens that John the Baptist was only preaching to the Jews. So Nicodemus being a Pharisee and a ruler of the Jews is all that is mentioned in the narrative.In was in thier circles that the ministry of John and of Jesus were subjects of discussion. We've been through a lot before. So what ? I have yet to see repetition help your wrong concepts of New Testament salvation. I am confident that the disciples could not be born of the Spirit if they had not had the Spirit imparted into them. And John tells us that until Christ's resurrection they did not have the Spirit imparted into them: "But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were ABOUT to receive. For the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified." (John 7:39) Since they were told to "Receive the Holy Spirit" after His resurrection in chapter 20, Jesus must have been glorified.Show me the verse in John that says they were born again before that time. "But this He said concerning the Spirit which they that believed into Him were ABOUT to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:39) And the act of JESUS breathing into them and saying Receive the Holy Spirit was NOT something He did continually.They were born again once just like they were born the first time ONCE. Sure, God and the Spirit of God is likened to a river of water in the Old Testament.Being born again is a one time event. The flowing out of the innermost being of the Holy Spirit is indeed continuous. It should be.Thirty or forty born again experiences or being daily born again is your doctrine.I can praise God for my new birth daily. I can thank God for my new birth hourly if I wish. The more I praise and thank God for being born again the better.That is different from insisting that the event has to take place 365 days a year.Daily thankfulness to God that one has been born again, I in no way discourage.This is much like Jesus dying on the cross ONCE. He does not have to go up to the cross everyday and repeat the redemptive act. And neither does He have to repeat the event of regeneration 365 days a year to the saved believer.I take your embellishment of New Testament teaching as nothing more than a dressed up attempt to teach humanism, self improvement, self refinement, and religious piety in place of Christ's salvation of regeneration. Mention some of whom it says they were " BORN AGAIN. " Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Simply put, Ringo wants to make "born again" for the individual - "born again and again and again and again and again ... etc. etc." I think he is trying to use the teaching of Jesus to further his religion of self improvement.Oh it sounds good. You have to humbly re-commit each day. It is not magic. It is a daily matter you have to work at.A goal of Ringo's way of teaching is to portray those of us who see the event of regeneration, as a cheap, superfiscial magic formula.There are plenty of good daily practices that the saved believer in Jesus can build up a habit of without adopting Ringo's heretical "Born again and again and again and again .... ad infinitum, ad nauseam" doctrine of crypto Humanism.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Nothing in the chapter says you can be born again in one spooky spin of a magic decoder ring. Jesus' reference to Judaism does suggest that the Jewish understanding of constant renewall is what He was talking about. Nowhere in the Bible is being born again listed as a one-time event. When asked what it meant, Jesus pointed to Judaism, not jaywillism. I haven't said a word about New Testament salvation. We're talking about a time before there was a New Testament. I've mentioned it in almost every post. "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (Joh 3:10) It's the equivalent of saying, "Art thou a PhD in Chemistry and knowest not that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen?"Nicodemus knew the answer to his question. He just didn't know he knew it. He was expecting, maybe hoping for, a magical easy answer but Jesus told him no, you still have to do it the hard way. It isn't my doctrine; it's the Jewish doctrine, the one that Jesus recommended to Nicodemus. And it's probably more like twenty thousand experiences in an average lifetime. Mention some in the New Testament. You know as well as I do that it's a rare phrase. Yet it's a common idea, one that most religions espouse. Even atheists believe in personal growth. It's a bit of an unfortunate phrase in that people like you manage to misunderstand it so badly.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

I think you're doing a fine job of that yourself.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

Reduced to wisecracks now ? It figures. You're arguments are so weak.

Then respond to them honestly instead of making snide little asides to the audience.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

My remarks, I do not regard as "snide". They were frank evaluations of your brand of Bible exegesis.And while we're on the charge of "snide" ... "decoder ring" ??You got a nerve calling someone else "snide".

Anyone can go back an reference my mention of "full-grown" in Christ.Christ "formed in you", and other NT phrases showing development.I mentioned Peter's "long for the pure milk of the word that you may grow thereby".I DELIBERATELY made sure I included many references to the PROCESS of maturation. Do you deny that ?I do point out that to be BORN AGAIN need only occur ONCE.There is no "born again and again and again and again ... every day" to the Christian. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Where you're going wrong is in separating "born again" from that maturation process. You're trivializing the term by claiming it refers only to the beginning of the process. Jesus' own words suggest that His meaning was the whole (old) process, not some fleeting moment of beginning which Nicodemus would not have understood.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate

The only thing I see you constantly renew is your lame sarcasm. How many times were you BORN ?If Jesus had not intended to discribe regeneration as a one time event He could well have used another word beside BORN.No one spends the rest of their life renewing or repeating their BIRTH.And if the birth is to receive "eternal life" then being eternal, there should be no need for the birth to be repeated 365 times a year, else it would not be eternal life.No, no, I don't any "decoder ring". You have your humanist, modernist, agnostic/atheist alternative dictionary in which you have you own twisted definitions for New Testament words and phrases.Hiding behind Judaism doesn't help your case. No. John chapter three is about the new covenant and the new testament. It definitely is NOT about the Old Testament Law Keeping handed down by Moses on Mt. Sinai. That is not Jesus wondering WHY Nicodemus is NOT born again. It is Jesus wondering why Nicodemis did not understand more about it.That could be concerning prophesy and the teaching that John the Baptist and He [Jesus] had already been proclaiming.It could have been the same concerning resurrection. Jesus could have said "You mean you do not understand these things about resurrection ??"That doesn't insist that Jesus is asking him WHY he has not been resurrected. No one can BOAST in being BORN. What did YOU do for your natural BIRTH ? Nothing.You got smacked on the butt by some doctor and you entered into this human life in full.Same with being born again. You BELIEVE in Jesus Christ as the Son of God with a kind of openess to receive Him. And He will cause you to be born again.There is NOTHING for you to brag about. That alone KILLS the natural man. He wants SO MUCH to approach God based on his own work. Show me the "Jewish doctrine" of being "born again" in the Old Testament.Any references I can think of are PROPHETIC predictions of the new covenant.You had the Spirit of Jehovah come upon some prophets. You could even find a few passages on the Spirit of Jehovah coming into someone.This must not be the New Testament event of being regenerated and born anew.Even John the Baptist apparently doesn't claim he is born again. I already did - Peter and his audience of his First Epistle. " God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ...regenerated us ... through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead " (1 Pet. 1:3) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I've been reborn several times. In the rest of the Bible, different words are used. The one time that Jesus used it was in a context that a master of Israel would understand. Jesus said it was. Argue with Him.

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If you have nothing to say, you could have done so much more concisely. -- Dr Adequate