If you were God, what kind of God would you be?

So, starting long and bloody crusades, torturing people terribly and "touching" altar boys is the culture of god? Really?

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I hunt for the truth

Rape is the forced & violent sexual penetration of an unwilling victim.yet, in the case of a captive woman, she was cared for physically, she was not immediately made a wife of the man, she was given a month to grieve for her family and once the man married her she became an isrealite woman with the same rights as everyone else.does this really sound like a violent act of rape? if this happened in our day and age I would agree with you...force anyone to have sex and it is rape.But women were subject to men in ancient times, they were all forced to marry...captive women or free women...and they accepted that as a normal everyday part of life. If a woman was married she was safe and would be provided for. Isrealite women were especially protected by the mosaic law becuase the law gave them special consideration. The law stated that men must cherish and love their wives, provide for them, given them children etc I do not believe that God condoned the act of rape either...the mosaic law outlaws rape and in some circumstances the man was to be put some death.

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Deuteronomy 22:25If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, 26and to the girl you must do nothing. The girl has no sin deserving of death, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case

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Some here have applied 'rape' as we know it, to the account about making captive women wives. That is not rape and cannot be called an act of rape.On many occasions, the isrealites did act badly, but that is not because God told them to. Its because the isrealites were sinful people just like the rest of us...sometime they did get it wrong and they were often punished severly for their errors. God never condoned bad behavior from them and this is why time and again they were defeated by invading armies and taken into captivity on several occasions. Absolutely, i agree with you. The gods of the pagan nations were blood thirsty and sexual deviates and there is nothing admirable about gods like that. But you can be assured that the God of the bible, jehovah, is in no way like any of those gods.

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Writing in the book Religion and Sexism, doctor of theology Phyllis Bird states:
Israel’s laws differ most notably from other known law codes in their unusual severity in the field of sexual transgression ... Israel’s view of the proper place of sex and the harsh penalties laid upon sexual offenders presumably reflect a deliberate antithesis to the practices of the surrounding peoples (specifically Canaanites) ... Sexual offenses are religious offenses in Israel. They are not private matters but matters of vital concern to the whole community.

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Such strict laws certainly disprove any claim that God is immoral and does not care for women.

the standard for christianity is set forth in the New Testamenti've never read anything in there about wars, torture and touching alter boysOnce again, we cannot blame God for the conduct of people.

so if channel 10 reports on an incident of a murder, they become a murderer...or if they report on something similarly disturbing, channel 10 should be charged with the crime?the bible is a history book...it is not a cataloger of all the things 'God' did. Its a book about things the people themselves did. That account continues with the war that broke out because of what that group of men did. The bible is written so that we can learn from their mistakes. If you cant look at that account as a lesson, then you are looking at it the wrong way. What that account does show is that the law in Isreal was that rape was a crime and when this woman was raped and killed, her husband sent a peice of her body to all the tribes of Isreal to show them what had happened and thats when all the tribes came to declare war on the men who committed the crime.so if your intention was to prove that the bible condones rape, then that account shows the opposite.

I couldn't respond to this earlier. I was at a wedding. It was a beautiful day. The bride was radiant, the groom was brimming with pride, and everyone was incredibly happy. It was very moving. I nearly cried.Of course, if the bride had been kidnapped after the slaughter of her family, I'm pretty certain I would have cried, just not for quite the same reasons.

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You may not realize that only girls who were virgins were considered for marriage by Isrealite men.

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Proving what a morally stunted bunch of scumbags they were. I notice that God's laws fail to address this horrendous attitude.Of course, this is another lie. The passages governing the forced marriage of female captives of war are sufficient to prove that requirements of virginity were not universally the case. Stop lying. You are a Christian. You are not supposed to lie.

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In the case of a girl being raped by either someone she knew or a stranger, then that girl would be given a life sentence.

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Again, all this proves is that God's chosen people were total bastards and that God, instead of addressing their prejudices, chose to reinforce those prejudices.He chose not to say "Don't ostracise non-virgins".He chose not to say "Don't punish rape victims".He chose not to say "Respect women's rights to own their own bodies".Instead he specifically ensures that these immoral attitudes and practises are enshrined as holy writ. God, if he had any morality at all, could have instructed the Israelites to behave in a way that we might recognise as morally acceptable, but he did not. He chose instead to damn Israelite women to a lifetime of rape and humiliation.I don't have any swear words sufficient to describe those levels of evil.

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So the greater punishment fell on the man.

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Greater than being forced to marry one's rapist and then being raped again and again, for the rest of one's life? Are you fucking serious? Have you completely lost your mind? Do you have a psychopathic personality disorder? Or are you just lying again?

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The girl was spared the humiliation of being an outcast in her community

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By subjecting her to the far greater humiliation of being forced to marry her rapist and then being raped again and again, for the rest of her life.Peg, this is not a good deal. It makes an already terrible situation much, much worse.God could have commanded that rape victims be treated with respect and dignity, but instead he commanded that they be treated as chattel and have indignity after indignity piled upon them. God's law enshrined acts of utter evil. All I am doing is judging him by his supposed acts.

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Im not saying this is something we would practice in our society, but in their society it was a necessary evil for it protected the girl from further humiliation and harm...

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...by having her marry her attacker and be raped by him at his whim for the rest of her life. Classy. And even worse, none of this addresses the rape of a non-engaged woman. Presumably that's OK.How does that qualify as protection from harm? The answer of course is that it doesn't, you are just lying again. Why? What makes you think your pathetic lies are going to convince anyone?The truth here is that you are willing to make extensive apologies for rape (even real-world rape that is happening right now, such as in Message 150) rather than utter one tiny and obvious criticism of the Bible.Look, it's easy;"The Old Testament has some nasty bits in it. Its pronouncements on rape are one example of this. The attitudes to rape in the Old Testament are immoral. They are not the words of a moral God, but the words of immoral men."That's all you need to say. It's not a big deal. It is one tiny criticism of the Bible, one that everyone who is not a fundamentalist Christian (or Jew) can tell is well founded. Unfortunately, you are unwilling to utter even the slightest criticism of the Bible. You would rather defend the filth of the human species, defend rape, slavery and genocide than make the slightest possible criticism of your precious favourite book.I find this reprehensible in the extreme. Shame on you. You are frightening sick in the head and as far as I can tell, it's the Bible that has made you this way. Shame on you Peg.Mutate and Survive

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"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

Hi percy,im holding up alright, thanks for the concernI have a pretty thick skin and contrary to popular opinion, i do understand where everyone is coming from. I agree with them totally that rape is morally wrong, however I dont agree with them that the account about the captive women is referring to rape.Im also taking into consideration the culture of the times when reading the accounts which they are failing to do. It was perfectly acceptable in those days for girls to be given away, even sold, into marriage. Even the kings purchased queens to make aliances with surrounding nations...it was the culture and mentality of the people and even the women seemed to accept it as normal.I dont know how anyone can judge them by our standard of today...its like abusing our grandfathers for going into the vietnam...we cant change the past, only learn from it.

What the?????? "THE Vietnam"? Is that the same as "THE Iraq"? I guess I missed the part in history class where the men who served were the same ones who STARTED the war and how they all signed up because they WANTED to go........Try a different analogy because that one is putrid.

this 'horrendous attitude' had everything to do with morality...sexual intercourse before marriage was considered immoral, not only by the people, but by God also.Of course, widows who were not virgins could remarry because it wasnt about being a virgin... if a girl was not a virgin and was not raped, then she must have committed immorality and therefore she would have been subject to the death penalty.Now to us this seems absurd because our morals are much looser, but they had very high morals. Virginity was highly valued, it was an honor to a girl to be a virgin.I fail to understand why you keep calling me a liar. I've quoted the scriptures for all to see...it is in the bible, i didnt make it up. Either prove me wrong scripturally, or stop with the school girl antics. 'liar liar pants on fire' became old for me in grade 5.

ah, so now you get the point about circumstances not all being black and whitegood.

What I see here, is, if it isn't directly quoted by god, it's man acting like an idiot, whereby relieveng the bible from wrongdoing. But if god says it, it's "god's will" or "they deserved it"What about Numbers 5 where a woman is subject to her thigh rotting away if she cheats on her husband? What happens to the man who she cheats with? Nothing. Please tell me your excuse for this one.The whole chapter of Numbers is disgusting. Outcast Lepers? Didn't god make them that way? Now they have to be ostracized?

The difference is: you are referring to events IN THE BIBLE where the individuals have claimed to be doing what they have done in the name of god. Your good book is claiming this, not an outside source. So, are they lying? Did they just claim to do what they did in the name of god, when it was really for there own good? If so, why are there liars in the bible? Why base your entire religion off a group of raping, pillaging, murdering liars?You say that men only "claimed" the name of god for the crusades, I guess that is material enough for the bible, yes?

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this 'horrendous attitude' had everything to do with morality...sexual intercourse before marriage was considered immoral, not only by the people, but by God also.

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Again, this only manages to prove just how morally stunted the Israelites and their vile sky-tyrant really were.

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Now to us this seems absurd because our morals are much looser, but they had very high morals.

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This is the opposite of the truth. Morality is not characterised by forcing a girl to marry her rapist. Morality is defined by respecting human rights.

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It's because you keep telling lies. One minute you say "You may not realize that only girls who were virgins were considered for marriage by Isrealite men." the next you say "Of course, widows who were not virgins could remarry because it wasnt about being a virgin...

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Only one of the statements can be true and, since you are intimately familiar with the content of the OT, this is not happening because you are honestly mistaken. You know fully well what the Bible says, you just choose to misrepresent it whenever it seems convenient.You say that "in fact {rape} holds the same punishment as a murderer" when this is patently not the whole truth. If an engaged girl is raped in the country it's marriage and a fine. If she is not engaged to be married, no penalty is discussed. You know this perfectly well, you just don't mention it, making it a lie.You are only able to defend your position by lying. This is not a playground taunt, it is a legitimate debate tactic; you are being dishonest, therefore you forfeit the right to have your argument taken seriously. You also run the risk of forfeiting your right to call yourself a Christian, since I believe Jesus is quite down on this sort of thing.I mean, just look at the kind of extreme dishonesty that you are peddling; To make statements which are so clearly contradictory, I see only three possibilities;a) You are insane.
b) You are suffering from some sort of personality disorder.
c) You are lying.The only thing that I can say in your defence (not that you deserve to be defended) is that you appear to be lying to yourself as well as the rest of us.

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prove me wrong scripturally

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I already have Peg. You claimed that thee penalties for rape were the same as for murder and I used scripture to call you on your lie. You're just too deep into your self-delusions and rationalisations that you didn't notice.The only way you can defend your precious scripture from this wholly justified charge is to lie, dissemble and ignore the vast majority of what is said to you, as you have done in this scanty excuse for an answer.You say that rape is wrong. Okay. Where does in the Bible does it say what punishment a man receives for raping a non-engaged, non-married woman who is not a virgin?Answer; it doesn't. Apparently raping such women is just fine.This is sick and evil and your failure to denounce it as such is monstrous. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.Mutate and Survive

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"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

quote from Peg: But channel 10 doesn't ascribe any morality to the reporting - they just report it as fact. However fundies are always telling us that you can only be moral if you follow the word of the bible; that we need God and the bible to tell us how to behave and how moral and righteous God is. Really?So God didn't tell Moses to hotfoot it down Mount Sinai and put to death over 3000 men,women and children for the appaling sin of making and worshipping a molten calf?He didn't tell the sycophantic Abraham to burn his son Isaac on a pyre - only to retract at the last minute....only joking Isaac old boy? I have no intention - merely a question: How can anyone hold up the bible as a lesson in morality? If the bible is just reporting facts (in the nature of channel 10) why would anyone try to draw moral lessons from it? If it is not true and meant instead as fables to draw on - then how does one draw morality from it? As an allegory?...then an allegory for what - nothing praiseworthy surely? And what moral lessons can be drawn from authoritative figures like God behaving in ways that would see modern humans locked away for life?Or are you saying we modern humans have it all wrong and we need to go back to the words and acts of the god of the Old Testament?When religous zealots try telling the rest of us we are sinners and can only be saved by following the word and ways of God then I think it's only fair that first you justify the way in which the bible is used as a morality check list.....good luck !

The term "God", and the vast, vague array of notions that it stands for (omni-you-name-it, "X and not X", "outside of time", etc), is nothing more than a linguistic slight-of-hand, a semantic shell-game, a verbose philosophical version of 3-Card Monte.To me, your question 1 is equivalent to: "what kind of self-contradiction would you be if you could be an oxymoron?" Gosh, I've never really thought about how I would answer a question like that... and I guess I never will think about it. Are you asking us to play house, but with "the cosmos" instead? That's kindergarten stuff... "What sort of imaginary creatures would you like to make?" Sorry, I've no time for that this weekend.Instead, I'll offer a couple of different questions for you:If you lived your entire life not knowing of the Bible's existence (let alone its contents) -- or if the Bible had been written in such a way that it gave no "moral" or "historical" information at all:(1) how would you figure out what were the "right" things to do on a day-to-day basis?
(2) how would you figure out the nature, background and workings of the things around you?Bear in mind that lots of people have been in the position of having no exposure at all to the Bible as a source of moral principles, and have been able to do admirably well in getting along with reasonably moral behavior, comparing favorably with the typical behaviors in various Judeo-Christian (or Muslim) societies.And as pointed out repeatedly in the science forums here, there's no shortage of knowledge about the things around us that does not come from the Bible, and in fact directly contradicts things in the Bible, and yet that knowledge is quite reliable and useful.Edited by Otto Tellick, : minor rewording of first answerEdited by Otto Tellick, : fixed misspelling in first paragaph

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autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

and what is the word of the bible?you do realise that the bible is a collection of written accounts about various subjects. Its not only laws that its followers are expected to follow. Some of the stories are recorded to teach what is bad and how God punished the isrealites for their actions...he's not telling us to copy their bad actions.