If you were God, what kind of God would you be?

God is directly telling, nay, commanding, the Israelites to do some despicable things. And yet you're saying this was to later punish them for following his command? What a hypocrite of a deity.

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I hunt for the truth

You seem intent on having your cake and eating it in this discussion.On one hand you define rape in terms of what is or is not culturally acceptable at any given time. On the other hand you tell us that gods laws are objective, defined and independent of mans cultural inclinations.So what exactly is gods take on the enforced enslavement of women for sexual and "marriage" reasons? Did he accept it as perfectly legitimate and part of the culture in biblical times? Does he condemn it now?Does gods "objective" morality continually change to match human cultural notions of morality as you seem to be implying?

Peg quotes: But don't we teach by example? You've boxed yourself in well and truly now Peg. Can you explain please how God can hold the moral ground by having those 3000 killed for worshipping a graven image (golden calf)?I would be particularly interested in your explanation of the following points in a moralistic framework that you think makes sense:1) Why were people not allowed to have their own 'gods'? Why is it so evil to worship Baal and his golden calf? (p.s. if you try to say it's because Baal is/was evil I will make you try to empirically justify your assertion so be very careful what you say).2) How can the death of 3000 people be moral especially when practised by an omnipotent being who should know better? - After all Peg you are mentally omnipotent compared to a 3 year old but i'm sure there is nothing that that 3 yr old could possibly do that would make you kill them !!!3) The 3000 people killed - not to mention all those in Soddom, Gomorah and Jerricho included countless numbers of children and babies. What crime against God could possibly justify the killing of such youngsters?Face it Peg your God is one sick bastard - and if you seriously stand by your quote above then the religious indoctrination you have obviously been subjected to in your earlier life has been thorough and effective. I believe you cannot see what is morally wrong because you have internalised your religous beliefs and the moral actions of your bible God are now deeply ingrained in you. For this as much as any other reason I am deeply against religous indoctrination in a school environment....deeply worrying!

I seem to be getting the impression that people are geniunely defending YHWH's act of collective punishment (including delayed collective punishment) is moral.So if the Pope does something illegal or immoral, it might be moral to kill a 9 year old Catholic.If a Jehovah's Witness elder commits adultery, it could be an imperative to dash a JW's child's brains out against a rock.Even if the moral crime occurred generations ago.YHWH would punish all members of tribes, nations and other groups for the crimes of small subsets of those tribes committed some moral crime against him.Do those who defend this type of justice believe our society should reflect it? A murderer's family should go to prison? A thief's neighbourhood should be stoned?

Isn't that sort of thing essentially the basis for some of the intra-Islamic conflicts? Well, gosh, if it works for Muslims (and it's in the Bible too!), why shouldn't it work for Christians?

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autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

I can understand why you'd think it was a minor thing for them to do, it may seem from our viewpoint that being killed for dancing around a calf is unjust and what notbut if you tried to view it from Gods point of view you might see why such action was warranted. The circumstance was that these people had just been rescued from Egypt, they were protected from perusing Egyptian forces by Gods hand, they had seen the miracle of Gods saving power and a small group of them decided to attribute their rescue to a statue that they had just made our of their body jewellery.they showed terrible disrespect to God after he had done so much for them. We cant expect to treat God in such a way and get away with it. in all honesty, it has nothing to do with the statue/image itself. The fact is that idolatry is the 'veneration' of the object ...when an idol is venerated or becomes an object of a persons devotion, it has the effect of taking the place of the rightful honor and devotion that should belong to God. He is their life giver and their God so they should not be bowing down to anything but him.Now we are spiritual people made with the capacity to have a relationship with a spiritual God yet when we use images, we are no longer giving anything to God, we are giving it to the image.This is why God outlawed the use of images in worship. Nothing is to be put before God as an object of veneration...we must worship God above all others. When a christian prays to a statue of the cross or an image of mary, they are committing the sin of idolatry whether they realise it or not. Worship should go directly to God, anything besides this is unacceptable to him. This is also why making a god out of Jesus is actually idolatry...Jesus directed his followers to worship God, yet many choose to worship Jesus instead. i cant say if any children were killed in that account becuase it does not say. it only says that 3,000 men who rebelled were killed.The act they committed was an act of rebellion for when Moses came back, he gave the people a choice, he asked them who was on Gods side...some of them obviously remained opposed to God and these ones were killed. its true that God decreed that Israel should make war to rid the Promised Land of the Canaanites. (Leviticus 18:1, 24-28; Deuteronomy 20:16-18) just as he had previously punished people by means of a deluge in Noah’s day and fire in the case of Sodom and GomorrahWhen God goes to war, its always against wickedness and because he sets the standards of morality, he is in the perfect position to judge when that morality is not being met. The cananites were depraved to the extreme and so God chose to erradicate them all including their children. Thats his decision to make and there must have been a good reason for it, however the bible does not say why. I would only be speculating.But one thing the bible does show is that God does not take any delight in having to put anyone to death. He is a God who will met out judicial punishment when it is due. but its important to note that he does this out of love of goodness and for the benefit of those who are being oppressed. In Noahs day he wiped out everyone because of their violence, with Sodom and Gomorrah it was because of their depravity, with the canaanites it was because of their child sacrifices and sexual depravity I was not bought up with religion so indoctrination has nothing to do with anything. My family were not religious, I had no education in the bible until my late teens and its because I wanted to know about it...not becuase someone indoctrinated me.

So, let me get this straight, if god told you to go int a a hospital and murder every single infant there, you would do it, becuase, hey, he's the only one that knows what's right.Me, I'd tell him to suck on it if he ever told me to do that, unlike him, I'm not an immoral bastard.Seiously, Peg, I hope you'll always remain of reasonably sane mind, because you're very dangerous, should you begin to hear voices.And please don't evade the question, answer it with a simple yes or no. If god told you to kill infants, would you do it?

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I hunt for the truth

of course notbesides, he'd never ask

I'll bet that was what Joshua said, too, before he started his career of doing so.....

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

Peg are your own contradictions invisible to you or something?One moment you say; and; The next you say that you would not kill a child if God told you to. On what basis can you refuse? You have already stated that your moral judgement is inferior to God's and that he must have a good reason. He knows best Peg! Kill the kid!Here's another nice contradiction; Yeah! Violent rotters! Wipe them out! Including, one assumes, all the children, even those only days or minutes old.Yet only a heartbeat later; What, so child sacrifice is wrong now? It was fine a moment ago, when God was willing to sacrifice the lives of every child on Earth in order to punish them for sins committed by others. Y'know, there's this book that shows that God is more than willing to ask people to kill infants. It's called "The Bible". In that book, you'll find plenty of divinely sanctioned infanticide. You should try reading it, it's a real eye-opener.So, just to recap, that's rape, infanticide and genocide you're willing to apologise for, rather than simply say "Some of the Old Testament isn't very nice.". Classy.Mutate and Survive

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"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

So, god's judgement isn't always right and perfect? Would you mind telling me how we determine when he's right and when he's not? And would that not also make us targets for him to eliminate, since we don't pay him the respect you say he deserves by disobeying his commands? Abraham says he would. And unlike you, he was quite willing to go through with it.

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I hunt for the truth

Quote from Peg: And for that they had to die?? are you completely insane? to assume there were no women and children among the 3000 is unwaranted to say the least - even if there wasn't, you are arguing for a God who kills on a whim on nothing of value. Here we have the supposed God who created the vastness of space, the billions of plantets and stars, the vast array of animals, plants and all of eath's ecosytems which he continually holds in check ....and he needs to wipe out 3000 naughty people for a minor infarction involving belief?????And if there are children in those numbers it is absolutely contemptible (and there were most certainly women,children and babies in Sodom, Gomorah & Jerricho - to name but a few of the multitudes of cities/towns that the Israelites wiped out). There is NO excuse under the sun you can come up with that makes it right to murder children and babies...did you get that Peg?....NO excuse so the following statement, ...is sick beyond belief. Any supernatural being who feels the need to wipe out children and babies for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER is utterly beneath contempt (as is anyone who believes and follows this doctrine)and our humanist moral values puts your God into the deepest disgrace possible...he is an ethnic-cleanising genocidal monster.Ethnic-cleanser? I hear you say; are you aware the caananites were dark-skinned (supposedly related to Ham - Noah's 'black sheep of the family' son)? The Israelites coined caananites generally as African descent people....So now you are proving what a racial bigot you are Peg, having proved already that you are a general bigot...this is not a pretty sight and I bet your ravings are going to make this worse as we proceed. If only you could read your words with a clear rational non-indoctrinated mind you would surely blush with the deepest embarrassment at what you are saying. no doubt you think that with each outpouring about the ways and practices of your God you will make us see the light....but all it shows is how deep and intractable your religion has got you gripped. Sorry to sound mean here ...but I simply do not believe you - I think your indoctrination started young and hard. It is possible for a person who had had little experience of religion to become hooked into a religous cult - but it doesn't happen often. You see Peg, the vast majority of people who make it to adulthood without religous instruction do not go on to become a religious fanatic...because their rationality is intact and they usually stay away from this unsavoury business...I am a classic example. My parents brought me up in a secular environment and the only religous education I received was the compulsory R.E classes in school. Consequently I have arrived at adulthood without the baggage of indoctrination that so many others receive perforce of their parents insistence/desires, and i consider myself very very fortunate to have been given this fredom of thought from childhood to adulthood.The Jews even have a statement about this: "Give me the boy for 7 years and I'll give you the man."....An indoctrinated Jewish man of course!Do you see now why from my previous post I am so against children being indoctrinated in religion? - it's because if it is done thoroughly then it results in people like you...unable to differentiatate between true good and evil, with no moral compass and a willingness to defend the death of babies and children with drivel like "Well God must have had a reason!" I can only reply with "And once Peg probably had a rational thinking brain!"[note to the moderators: Sorry if this sounds hard - but Peg did say
it was OK and I do feel very stronly about this - ]

Dear Peg

I spent two hours cutting the hedge yesterday and my mum gave the credit to my dad. Should I kill her, Peg?

Under appreciated
Two Bends, Wyoming

Edited by lyx2no, : Cap.

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It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.

Double post..Edited by Evlreala, : double post..

1) An irresponcible one.
2) One in which my existance was hidden from the mortals I ruled over.