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Author | Topic: How does one distinguish faith from delusion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Surely, having some faith that there is more to life than what the 5 senses can detect is not delusional? Sure it is. If you believe in something that has absolutely no evidence then you are delusional. People have been trying to show me evidence for years. It is not evidence it is faith. Faith that goes against all the five senses. Until you can show proof it is delusion in my book. By the way, what is "more to life"? What "more" do people want? An afterlife? My life has plenty of meaning without a belief in the supernatural. I do not have to have some delusional faith in order to live a good moral life. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
The 5 senses do not provide us with any direct sensation of numerous phenomena that have clearly been proven to exist (ultraviolet and infrared light, non-luminous radioactive decay, ... True but we have measuring devices that allow us to use our 5 senses to detect these "phenomena". Are you implying that faith is caused by some sort of non-discovered physical phenomena? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Atheism is faith, too, so be careful. How is Atheism faith? You seriously think faith can be defined in not believing in something? Atheism is the lack of faith. Let me make it easy. Faith is believing in something without any evidence. Atheists follow the evidence. Which makes us not have faith because there is no evidence. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
There are many refutations of Pascal's Wager. This is hardly a new thought or argument. I find it quite interesting that an argument from the mid 1600's still gets so much play.
There have been many criticism's of Pascal's Wager since it was first introduced. Logical it fails at first blush. It allows 2 choices: belief in the christian god or not. These are not the only possibilities so at initial glance the wager fails. Maybe you mnight want to look at the wiki page to see how the argument fails.
Pascal's Wager - Criticismsquote: quote: quote: How about the Atheist Wager as an alternative?
quote: Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Atheists have faith that there is no god, or gods, or anything transcendent. That would be a big no. There is no evidence for a god, so therefore I do not have a belief in a god. There is no evidence for a god, but those that have faith have faith that there is a god. One stance is based on the evidence, the other is based on faith. Big difference. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So which god am I supposed to believe in? How many gods are you agnostic to? How many are you atheist to? Do you even see the point? Why is unsubstantiated belief in a god exempt from delusion? Why are some people that hear voices termed crazy? But if preachers or George Bush claim to be hearing voices they are exempt from any concerns that they may be delusional? Why does religion get a free pass? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Here is an even better idea.
Stay on topic. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
I rarely read your posts because they are very long winded. This is not to say that I discount what you say, just that I find your style difficult to read.
Here are a couple responses.
The thing is, an atheist does not display themselves as 'not believing in something'. That may be an agnostic - one who has yet to purport a stance either way, due to a lack of convincing evidence to suit their individual perception of life. Atheists have employed the absence of evidence, and established it as concrete perception; the paradigm then rests upon the premise of this absence. I venture to guess most atheist would say that there is no reason to believe in a god because there is no evidence. Provide evidence and I am sure many would reconsider their views. Which gods are you agnostic to? Which gods are you atheist to?
So then, atheism should be believing in something with evidence. Yet, it is common to find atheists who take a positive stance on paranormal phenomena.
I have never understood how an atheist could believe in the paranormal. Then again this means actually nothing. What people that claim to be atheist believe means nothing to the definition of atheist. In the same vein one could say the same about anyone that has beliefs that go counter to what they claim to believe. I do not think that people that believe in the paranormal are atheists. They obviously believe in something supernatural, this in my book would discount them from being atheists.
Atheists follow those they trust - their gurus', and the general movement of their religious belief system.
Oh please!! Can you make a more generalized, unsubstantiated statement than this? Do I read atheistic and non-christian writers? I sure do. I Have read Dawkins, Harris, Doherty and currently I am reading "The Rejection of Pascal's Wager", by Paul Tobin(doesn't strike me as an atheist). They are not my guru's. They are people that write about things I have an interest in. Do I agree with everything they say? Not at all.I find your comment laughable. Atheism does not have a religious belief system. If it does no one has contacted me. Do you know where they meet? I bet they are a bunch of self righteous asses.
Science and atheism are not interchangeable, much less longstanding kinsman. Who here has said they were? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
As will your sacrificail robes and a copy of "The God Delusion". Signed by high priest Dawkins himself. Good I need a new copy. Signed is cool too. I loaned mine out a while ago and the SOB never returned it. Do we atheist have any way to curse someone? Something like imprecatory prayer. Damn I have been an atheist for over 30 years and never knew I was supposed to have a guru or that we had a creed we had to adhere to. Good thing I had a chance to chat with Bailey. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Since one cannot prove that there is no God, atheism is indeed faith. Belief and faith are not the same thing. Faith is belief without any underlying evidence. Atheism is not a faith because an atheist takes the fact there is no evidence to have no belief in a god. For example,Religious person No evidence of a god, but believes in a god AtheistNo evidence for a god, does not believe in a god. The first is faith, the second is not. Also, faith is based upon a system of religious belief. Show me the system of belief that atheist have> Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
This is not scientific evidence, of course; it may be historical, or experiential, or mystical, or some other type of evidence. But it is evidence nonetheless. If it cannot be scientifically shown how can it be evidence. Please define evidence. What is historical evidence that cannot be scientifically examined? Anecdotes? Fables?Pray tell what is experiential or mystical evidence? I agree with Stile. I don't think the word means what you think it means. That word Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Is it really logical and realistic to believe that organisms came from a soup and that natural processes are more mindful and clever than a mind with intelligence? Certainly counter-intuitive at the very least. As a person with "faith", you may think non belief in a god is "counter-intuitive", but that is not at all how I or other atheists would see it.Your beliefs and faith do not trump what others believe, no matter what you think. The problem I see with you and your views is that you totally discount others that have beliefs different than yours. You make blanket statements based upon your world view. Wouldn't it be illogical to disregard a belief which is constantly proved as relevant to reality? Another statement with no support. You may feel there is a relevance to your reality. That does not mean it is truly relevant or that others feel it is relevant. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Do you think that the man's wife really was a hat? This is a very good point. In order to get a grasp of how the brain can make people believe or think many strange things, everyone should read the books by Oliver Sacks The brain is a strange and wonderful thing. For many reasons it can distort and alter reality and our perceptions of it. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
you are behaving exactly like the creationists with whom I debate: supporting your own position with little evidence, I have to go on Stragglers side on this one. He has asked repeatedly for some evidence on an immaterial entity. I agree with him that in order for there to be a difference between faith and delusion there must be some sort of evidence for faith. Is that such a hard concept for the religious people and the deists to accept? Instead of anyone providing any sense of evidence he has been accused of being closed minded and and no thaving any evidence. What kind of evidence is he supposed to show? That people don't have subjective esxperiences? You yourself LindaLou have gone on ad nauseum about what atheists think and believe. Refusing to address his question. Look at the title of the OP. Look at the OP. From the OP So then, my question to you is this. How do you distinguish between a delusional experience you have had and a religious faithful experience you have had? What criteria do you use? People have said they have subjective evidence for faith in an immaterial entity. Is it too much to ask what that evidence is? Why are we supposed to just accept everyone's word for it? If people want to convince us atheists that there is a god and we should have faith, maybe they should start showing some of this super double secret evidence they have. Hell he is even willing to accept subject evidence. That is going farther down the road to mumbo-jumbo land than I would be willing to go. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9202 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
Is there a god?
Don't know. Don't care. Maybe if there were some sort of evidence i might entertain the idea.
Is there a purpose to our existence; and if so, what is it?
Why would there be a purpose? We exist in order to pass on our genes to the next generation. Is that a purpose?
Is there any such thing as free will?
Yeah. I would venture that almost everything is done by free will.
Does Ultimate Truth exist? And if so, can we know its nature? And if so, what is it?
That question has no meaning. It is spiritualist mumbojumbo nothing more. I answered. Now Stragglers question to you, any chance you might maqke a stab at answering it? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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