General discussion of moderation procedures - Part 7

pd, marking half the thread off-topic, writes: yes. it is. it's a debate about the types of reasoning and arguments that the creationists use to support their particular ideas, and their selective and extreme exception to and acceptance of evolution.

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It looks like John Davidson has taken the stance that if he is only allowed on the Showcase forum, he won't really debate.Why not grant him full posting privileges? Much of his criticism of Darwinism relates to specific and narrow areas, such as reiterating the fossil record shows absolutely no evidence of gradualistic evolution, etc,....Seems like his input on smaller themes than the whole PEH theory would be helpful.

So what you are saying is that people who are unable to play well with others and get banned, when they are given their OWN forum - if they cry and whine enough we give in and put them back in the general population?

Randman, you should go back and read the previous threads JAD has participated in. He has never been willing to 'really debate'.JAD knows the answers already, he is satisfied with his hypothesis and shows no interest in thinking about possible implications or applications of it.His input on any and all themes will be directly related to the PEH, with footnotes from the works of Mivart, Berg, Broom, Bateson, Grasse, Goldschmidt, Schindewolf and Grasse and it will be in the form of a reiteration of the correctness of the PEH.TTFN,WK

The title says: ad-hoc hyper-evolution arguments regarding "the fall"Excerpt from the OPThen you list several of Faith's comments concerning "hyper-evolution"Even your reply that you brought over asked: Then you progress into discussing the cats.What I see is a thread to discuss the hyper-evolution type arguments. In your Message 13 you stated: I don't see predominant discussion of animals before and after the fall, macroevolution, or hyper-evolution in the posts I tagged. All I see are people characterizing Creationists or Creationism in general. No discussion of the arguments.Excerpts: I thought you were going to get into why the arguments are ad-hoc or why the extreme change from herbivore to carnivore is unreasonable, or better yet the fact that the Bible probably doesn't support the idea. It isn't a science forum, so maybe a little idea of what hyper or macro evolution is.All that's been said so far is that the Creationist have their story and they're sticking to it. That's not headline news and I'm guessing they have the same opionion of your position.If I am missing something, show me how those posts further the discussion on ad-hoc hyper-evolution arguments because I've learned nothing so far.

The primary qualification for residence in Showcase is showing persistent and extreme resistance to moderation. That's why there's largely no moderation in the forum.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I did notice that Professor Davison agreed to the terms of the Showcase and then abandoned his agreement--although he clearly continues to relish the art of bloviating insult. See above. Dr. Davison has been given a forum platform with little to no involvement by forum admin. The Showcase format apparently provides a more than ample avenue for those forum members who wish to engage him.If he wishes to launch more narrowly focused topics, I'm sure the Showcase can accommodate that. His own frequently recited list of forum bannings suggests that full forum access by this gentleman has proven problematic in many places.

I'm kind of troubled by that myself. And have been from the start. It has become a parody at this stage.But what also troubles me is that there hasn't been much in the way of truly penetrating questions. The PEH is there. If NeoD is King then I would have imagined there to be a string of approaches that would cut through the hot air and reveal PEH to be a sham - if that is what it is.Folk seem to scuttle off after a post or two due to the ridicule. But under normal EvC circumstance they never do that. They ask a question that cuts to the core. Something that silences the ridiculing opponantIt just hasn't happened. And its not like PEH fits my own views in anycase. John has Creos just as much in his sights as he does the EvosNo one has unpacked the fallacy behind PEH - if they believe it to be fallacious. John ridicules for sure. But he is also ridiculed. No clues as to PEH veracity thereIt seems to me that PEH sits there unaffected by it all. Amongst all the noise all I hear is silence.

Iano, if you haven't noticed, JAD decides he doesn't want to continue discussion with people when they try to ask questions to make very clear what PEH and it implications are.JAD has made statements of 'fact' that are clearly not factual but refuses to discuss any of it.Specific questions are asked, JAD huffs and puffs and doesn't answer.I'm surprised that there have been so many people willing to waste time.If you think there is anywhere that he has actually discussed the meat of the matter I'd like to see your analysis of it.

Scuttle, iano? That's nice talk. Have you been hanging out with Dr. Davison? Dr. Davison set the tone in his thread. He refused to present his case for the PHE, insisting instead that he be attacked. Initial, courteous questions from a succession of members were waved off with contempt.Who needs it? Unlike the usual interlocutor here, he is subject to little moderation, while the member participants are bound by the forum guidelines and can be removed at his request. Despite this uneven field, working professional scientists attempted to engage him in calm, productive discussions: that willingness was the remarkable thing, not the no-thanks attitude of the majority here.His refusal to reply substantively and to refrain from insulting ad hominem replies would get a member suspended. How many of us have to hop in the muck before we conclude it is, indeed, muck?As he says, his HEP is right out there for anyone to read. Having read the thing, I don't need to step up so that Davison can add insult to injury. Still, important ideas are not always welcomed, or their creators nice people: the Showcase is a sizeable soapbox, and it is in his hands to make of it what he will. These may be early days. Hop right in, then!

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I think Pink Sasquatch is doing quiet nicely without my assistance thanks all the same (if the truth be known, Science fora are useful only for getting my toenails clipped - I know when I'm beat once the skin starts getting removed)I await John with interest. This is more like it.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Iano, I think one reason for the silence is that the simple facts John points out, such as the fossil record being at odds with NeoDarwinism, are irrefutable. Of course, they are irrefutable when you or I point the same facts out, but for some reason most evos here are willing to take us on, but not JAD.

Yes, quite right. They are irrefutable because they are philosophical "facts" and not empirical facts. It would be closer to standard terminology to say that they are unfalsifiable.Note that this discussion is off-topic. This is not supposed to be a debate thread, nor is it supposed to be a thread to discuss other threads.

it seems we have a different idea of what my intents were for the thread. they seem to have been more mean-spirited than even i've realized lately. it was started out of frustration, and probably is more of a "look at how ridiculous!" type of ad hominem than anything else.the thread would be better the way you envision it. feel free to moderate however you wish. i'm thinking of taking a break from the board for a while; there's too much frustration on my part, and frankly i have other things i could be doing that are less stressful.continue, sorry for objecting.

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To everyone discussing JAD and his recent PEH thread,I'm replying to nwr because his message is the last in the chain.As nwr notes, this discussion doesn't seem to be focusing on a moderation issue. The proper place to discuss PEH is in JAD's thread. That thread has reached the 300 message limit and is now closed. If someone would like to pick up the PEH discussion or some related aspect of it, then propose a new thread in PAF and the moderator team will promote it as quickly as is practical. Please specify whether you would like JAD included in the discussion so that in that case we may place the thread in the Showcase forum.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director