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Author Topic:   Political Prognostication
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 40 of 67 (459761)
03-09-2008 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by AZPaul3
03-09-2008 2:06 PM


Re: Obama takes Wyoming
Hello, nice avatar and interesting analysis. While I agree with much of what you said, I disagreed with the strength of your objection (or perhaps calculation is the better word) regarding Obama.
Your argument regarding his viability in a general election, particularly due to racial issues, is an assertion. Black candidates have found footing at previously unheard of elected positions all over the country. More importantly, blacks have now served at essentially the second highest non-elected office in our nation: secretary of state. Even good ol' boy conservatives considered Powell a potential VP, and more moderate conservatives potential Presidential material.
I think race has disappeared as an issue to a large degree, particularly for charismatic/powerful/famous people seeking or within prominent positions. And I think that has little to do with intentionally putting aside prejudice. Its just that familiarity removes that issue, and charisma/power/fame breeds familiarity. They wouldn't have gotten into the possibility of obtaining a prominent position without having previously removed themselves from the "out group" category.
While there certainly may remain sections of the US which would not want a black person as president, I don't think a solid case has been made that it would be big enough to effect a general election.
As change is a big theme, promoted by both parties, Obama is the only symbol of true change... and that's without addressing race.
Clinton, as she campaigns, already admits to having been in the White House. Her arguments seem to be more about projecting back to the past. And if she does win Bill will be back in power. If she were to dispute this then I'd have to ask how she can claim to have been in power while Bill was president? It is really same old same old with her, and even if competent she has fumbled the ball enough to lose some dems and independents, as well as having overt negative effects on reps in general.
McCain, though sometimes a maverick, is largely a part of the system that has been working for some time. He might siphon some independent votes from Hillary, but not so likely from Obama. I doubt he'll pull in dems.
Obama has been attracting members from all parties. I was astounded to learn a march in step/born and raised republican I knew is considering voting for Obama. I know its anecdotal, but I've been hearing similar stories and it is something I have not heard for either Hillary or McCain, where their appeal is generally limited to traditional party affiliation.
So I guess this is to say, I think a Hillary McCain battle will be the same old election scheme, with the general election turning on basic base party affiliation turnout . An Obama McCain battle would involve more of a shakeup, with the potential for greater crossing of lines (and I believe more from rep to dem, as well as ind to dem).
Personally, I would vote for Obama over McCain, but I might consider Nader over Hillary.
Edited by Silent H, : lil fixes

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2008 2:06 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2008 7:16 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 48 of 67 (459792)
03-09-2008 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by AZPaul3
03-09-2008 7:16 PM


Re: Obama takes Wyoming
In this country, in this time, with this central electorate, "black moslem" presents too much of a change.
I guess that I can agree, if for some reason the republican party can stick Obama with such a label, he will have a hard time.
However, I don't think most dems would fall for that as they would see it for the trick it is. I don't think most independents will fall for that either. I think the only group that maneuver would effect in any meaningful number are possible republican defections.
I don't feel that would be great enough to win an election for McCain, and I don't think super-delegates ought to be keeping that in mind.
As it stands, easier than placing that false image on Obama, will be pinning the real image of Bill Clinton on Hillary, or the false specter of Socialism on Hillary. Both are divisive issues which can do more than prevent rep defections. Hillary seems to be more susceptible to labeling than Barak, they can aim for her husband as well and hit the same target.
Finally, if McCain tries to use such false labeling on Obama and he fails, I think that might result in a backlash reps would NOT want to see. Given that he had been such a target by Bush, he is likely to appeal to it less anyway, and like I said it would create a backlash as all reps will be seen as overt mud-slingers. He is claiming to be bringing change, that would not be change.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by AZPaul3, posted 03-09-2008 7:16 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2008 12:52 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 50 of 67 (459973)
03-11-2008 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by AZPaul3
03-10-2008 12:52 PM


Re: Obama takes Wyoming
Reps will certainly try to stick any label they can on Obama. But there is a difference between trying and succeeding. I can agree the smear you suggest will be one of the more likely to be tried, but do you really think it will sway dems or independents in the general election?
As far as Hillary's people using that tactic... this alone should be good reason for any thinking person not to support Hillary. Your argument about super-delegates taking such smears into consideration for Barack seems to whither away with such a reality about Hillary.
I would also note, whatever Hillary does right now, if Obama wins the nomination you will see her machine fight any such slander against him in the general election.
After all, look what the Reps made of McCain in the lead up to 2000... and where are all their accusations now?
My opinion is that in a general election Obama has the ability to not only energize dems (I don't see him losing many) but also pulling in independents (like myself) and some reps. Hillary simply does not have that kind of clout, particularly against McCain. McCain can at best prevent rep losses with the smear you are suggesting, and would have equal fodder against Hillary (using woman=weak on war, her stated position on the Iraq vote=flip-flopper and weak on war, Bill Clinton back in white house).

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by AZPaul3, posted 03-10-2008 12:52 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2008 3:01 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 52 of 67 (460259)
03-13-2008 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by AZPaul3
03-13-2008 3:01 PM


Re: Sand In The Machine
Well I disagree with your hypothesis, and... nothing personal... hope you are proven wrong.
Sticking the “moslem” label on Obama has already been done, from both sides. Shaking it off will be difficult at best, if not impossible.
Attempts have been made, but I simply do not see it sticking in any real way. The most you bring up for evidence are small groups who are unlikely to effect the general election, and that is assuming they would choose to vote for McCain out of such errant fears.
And I'm still not sure how difficult it would be to shake off, much less that it would be impossible. It isn't true and the facts are there for everyone. I can't see a bald-face lie swinging a general election. I mean if confronted, would McCain publicly state that Obama is not Xian? I don't think he'd be that stupid or mean.
This will get into the minds of the great middle-class voting bloc and stay there. Repeated often enough and subtle enough, the big lie can work its demented magic.
Or we can also repeat that such a thing would be a problem, until people actually believe it. Personally I'm for one of the first nearly pure (for politics) issue centered elections.
The Clinton “machine” is wholly personal and self-serving. Without an immediate personal goal on the horizon, should Hillary lose the nomination to Barak, the “machine” will slip quietly into low gear paying periodic lip service to the nominee while trying to soothe its battered ego.
Whereas I can agree with your cynicism, which is why I'd rather not vote for Hillary, I don't think they'd view a McCain win as worthwhile for themselves at all.
The dems really need Prez victory. If that can't win it this year, when will they be able to? McCain is not an idiot like Bush and if he manages to pull the country back to any decent shape, the dems will be locked out for a long time to come. What's worse, he'd act as a great fig leaf for the Bush years.
Hillary would be better served with Obama beating McCain, if he beats her. Note that is especially true if she is for healthcare. She might not like his plan, but it beats the hell out of McCain's.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2008 3:01 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2008 8:04 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5849 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 57 of 67 (460376)
03-14-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by AZPaul3
03-13-2008 8:04 PM


Re: Sand In The Machine
Saw this article today on Obama's issues with Jews and thought you might be interested. From the article...
"Right now, Obama's big problem with the Jewish community is similar to his problem with other communities: He's just not clearly defined among any voter groups," said Kenneth Wald, director of Center for Jewish Studies at the University of Florida-Gainesville. "The fact he has a name that sounds Muslim and has a Muslim father underlines questions about what we do and what we do not know about him."
That supports your claim about the potential issue, yet...
"There has been a concerted effort, largely out of the conservative Web sites and anonymous e-mails," says Ira Forman, executive director of the National Jewish Democratic Council, which set up a Stop The Smears Web site to correct the rumors.
"I don't think it moves tons and tons of votes, but at the fringes, if left unchecked, it could move a few," he said.
What's interesting is that this article goes on to make Obama's position on Israel more explicit. That is something I've been worried about for some time, and it unfortunately supported those fears for me. He appears to be a Zionist (saying straight out that Israel must remain a Jewish state, which to me is advocacy of racism/religious intolerance). I may end up voting for Nader after all. Maybe.

h
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 03-13-2008 8:04 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

  
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